# Is it time for a new government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146 "2000-04-28T03:40:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/21 "2000-05-01T16:07:23Z")
**Argeable:** > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, there’s trouble at home. People are discontent. Greed is a prime factor in almost everythng. Your topic is whether or not the government shoud be changed or replaced. Apparently you think that the reason for this is the above-mentioned problems. I respond negatively to your suggestion because it is apparent that you want to suggest a new government that will, supposedly, solve these problems. For me, if the choice is between current government as it exists, and a problem-solving government, I’ll happily stick with what we have. > [@](#): > > An excessive desire to acquire or possess **more than what one needs or deserves** , especially with respect to material wealth.[emphasis added] Your definition contains the root of the problem I have with what you want to suggest. Who decides what is “excessive” desire? Who decides if I have more or less than I deserve? These are things I don’t want imposed on me by government, or judged according to someone else’s code of ethics. In our current system, each individual may decide for himself what is “excessive”, subject to the limitations of the rights of others and the operations of the market. In other words, my statement is not something that I can necessarily “back up” or prove; it is a statement of principle. Hope this clears it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/22 "2000-05-01T16:18:44Z")
**Argeable:** > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, there’s trouble at home. People are discontent. Greed is a prime factor in almost everythng. Your topic is whether or not the government shoud be changed or replaced. Apparently you think that the reason for this is the above-mentioned problems. I respond negatively to your suggestion because it is apparent that you want to suggest a new government that will, supposedly, solve these problems. For me, if the choice is between current government as it exists, and a problem-solving government, I’ll happily stick with what we have. > [@](#): > > An excessive desire to acquire or possess **more than what one needs or deserves** , especially with respect to material wealth.[emphasis added] Your definition contains the root of the problem I have with what you want to suggest. Who decides what is “excessive” desire? Who decides if I have more or less than I deserve? These are things I don’t want imposed on me by government, or judged according to someone else’s code of ethics. In our current system, each individual may decide for himself what is “excessive”, subject to the limitations of the rights of others and the operations of the market. In other words, my statement is not something that I can necessarily “back up” or prove; it is a statement of principle. Hope this clears it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Argeable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5ac83/32.png) [@Argeable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argeable)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/23 "2000-05-01T19:37:17Z")
Ok, this’ll probably end up finishing off the board…oh well… > [@](#): > > \*\* > **Argeable:** > > I respond negatively to your suggestion because it is apparent that you want to suggest a new government that will, supposedly, solve these problems. > > For me, if the choice is between current government as it exists, and a problem-solving government, I’ll happily stick with what we have. > > > [@](#): > > > > An excessive desire to acquire or possess **more than what one needs or deserves** , especially with respect to material wealth.[emphasis added] > > Your definition contains the root of the problem I have with what you want to suggest. Who decides what is “excessive” desire? Who decides if I have more or less than I deserve? These are things I don’t want imposed on me by government, or judged according to someone else’s code of ethics. In our current system, each individual may decide for himself what is “excessive”, subject to the limitations of the rights of others and the operations of the market. > > In other words, my statement is not something that I can necessarily “back up” or prove; it is a statement of principle. Hope this clears it up for you. > \*\* Argh, I’m just too damn lazy to paraphrase that, so you’ll have to live with it. So, thanks for that, it was basically all I was looking for on that whole government thing. Whatever… (yea, bad form to end like that, but it all evens itself out with a neutral comment) ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/24 "2000-05-01T19:54:35Z")
**Argeable:** Um, so what are you saying? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/25 "2000-05-01T22:23:51Z")
Are you OK? I am worried for you. Please reply. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/26 "2000-05-01T22:36:43Z")
My server is down. You can email me. But I can’t get to it. Please reply here. peace ---
**Author:** ![Argeable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5ac83/32.png) [@Argeable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argeable)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/27 "2000-05-01T22:48:20Z")
Yes, I am ok, thanks for asking though. When I started this thread, I was asking for people’s opinions on the subject. I got it. That’s all I was saying ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2000, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/28 "2000-05-01T23:09:43Z")
OK. Whew. It looked like you were rambling there. I was concerned. (I think that is a compliment. It implies that you do not usually ramble. 🙂 ) I am glad that you are all right. I am going to keep an eye on this thread to see if **Monty** will reply. I am going to give him a full 48 hours. If I do not hear from him by then, I will claim my coup. ## What is your opinion of my proof? * * * Just putting in my 2sense ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/29 "2000-05-02T04:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Monty’s assertions. > > > [@](#): > > > > 2sense further grasps at a straw: > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Are you aware that the constitution was itself illegal? > > > > To which I point out: > > Excepting of course for the minor matter of the legislatures of the consituent States ratifying it and thus making it 100% legal. You’re not doing very well with these WAGs of yours. > > To which I answer: > > 1st cite, The Articles of Confederation. > > > [@](#): > > > > ARTICLE XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State. > > 2nd cite, The Constitution. > > > [@](#): > > > > Article. VII. > > The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same. > > The constitution called for ratification by 9 states. The Articles of Confederation (the law of the land) called for unanimous ratification. So the document was in violation of the Articles of Confederation. The Constitution was, if you will, unconstitutional. > > That all of the states did eventually ratify it is immaterial. Although the fact is that not all did until after George Washington was sworn in as President (under the new constitution). > > **Therefore, as I stated earlier, the constitution was illegal.** > > ## I would hardly characterize this as “grasping at straws”. I also would not characterize this as a “Wild Ass Guess” I would characterize this as proof. > > **Monty** , I (and my coupstick) await your reply. You seem to have an unhealthy fetish regarding some stick, but here’s my response to your still mistaken assertions. This time, we’ll try the Socratic method: 1. Who commissioned the Constitutional Convention? 2. Who submitted the proposed Constitution to the State Legislatures. 3. Who decided that such submission would be of force? 4. Who has declared in another thread that the Constitution is valid, yet ineffective? Answer to 4 is: 2sense. Your assertion there has already been proven, and not just by me, to be incorrect. Regarding the 48 hours: BIOYA. I’m moving overseas this week and don’t always have that much time to get online. I’ll definitely not be able to do so after tomorrow night as I’ll be on my way. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/30 "2000-05-02T04:52:22Z")
All right then, I favor a quick resolution. I am weak on the Socratic method, but I am willing to accept it none the less. Answers: 1. the Old Congress 2. Ditto 3. I don’t understand this question. Please clarify. 4. 2sense? I believe that you are questioning my standing. Or are you suggesting that I am being hypocritical? Also I believe a cite would be in order. - My questions. A. Did the old Congress have the legal authority to change the Articles? B. Did the old Congress have the legal authority to change the ammendment process? ## C. Does valid = legal Whatever our disagreements, I am not 1 of those liberals who believe that military personale are “loafers on the public payroll”. You put in your time. You served your country. You defended me. I appreciate that. I hope you enjoy your retirement. You have earned it. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/31 "2000-05-02T05:05:11Z")
A coupstick is only a stick for counting coup. In many Native American cultures it was considered more honorable to count coup on an enemy warrior in battle than to simply slay him. This was done by touching the enemy with your coupstick. By counting coup you were more honorable. This left your enemy alive. And with a loss of his own honor. So this enemy was likely to come looking for you. So counting coup meant that you were honorable and courageous. There is a photo of a Native holding a coupstick at the bottom of this page. You can’t see much of the stick itself. It was the best I could do on short notice. [http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/VAR/bw/bioghist.htm](http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/VAR/bw/bioghist.htm) ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/32 "2000-05-02T05:43:11Z")
Disregard B.(same question as A.) I see that you answered 4. I missed that the 1st time around. I am looking for an advisor on the Socratic Method. This person(s) will not help me with the argument other than in these 2 ways. _Answer questions about the Socratic Method._ _Help me judge if someone has been disproven._ I have not found 1 yet. If I do not, I will continue without. Could you give me a better idea of the timeframe that we are dealing with? I presume you will not be posting up until the minute you must walk out the door. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/33 "2000-05-02T07:01:20Z")
OK, I am off to bed. I thought that you wished to settle this. If not that is OK with me. I will be getting home around 3:30 or 4:00 PM CT. My wife will be gone so I can debate until she gets home. I’m not sure what time that would be. Do you really want to spend your last day here arguing with me? If you concede this point then that would only make us even. Would that be that bad? Anyways I will continue tomorrow if you wish. If you do not respond I will NOT assume that I am correct. I will , instead, try to find someone else to take up your side of the argument. ## 1 question though. Am I not supposed to ask questions of my own in this method? Good Nite, and Good Luck ---
**Author:** ![Argeable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5ac83/32.png) [@Argeable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argeable)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/34 "2000-05-02T07:14:54Z")
Ugh, my god but going to sleep at 6 pm and waking up at 3 are about the stupid things you can do…9 hour naps don’t have happy endings. With that said, I’ll just say: thanks for responding, I’m glad someone does. It looks liek I’ve got a good 3 hours before anyone wakes up, so at least I have something to read… ~Dan ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/35 "2000-05-02T08:58:59Z")
I think I would like to point out that a Democracy only “works” (in the sense of a government “working”) when there’s several other factors involved… for example, you need an educated population (not just scholastically, but people who know what’s going on with the government) and you need a certain amount of patriotism (people DO need to care about their government and their country, after all). Unfortunately for America, neither of those criteria are being met very well. So I propose that the United States revert to a dictatorship for ten years (Harry Truman once said “Whenever you have an efficient government, you have a dictatorship”… I love that quote). During this decade of dictatorship, all the bleeding-heart liberals (which I believe is the source of poor countrymanship) will realize just how much freedom and how many rights they had. When the decade of dictatorship is over, they’ll appreciate their freedom a helluva lot more and they’ll stop whining like the loud-mouthed babies that they are. I also recommend that people eat their children… ten SPOOFE points to whoever matches that reference first!! ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/36 "2000-05-02T17:49:26Z")
What the hell is a Spoofe point? Are you making a modest proposal? ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/37 "2000-05-02T17:52:13Z")
Oops…Sorry about screwing up the capitalization. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/38 "2000-05-02T21:19:15Z")
My “advisors” have explained my role in your our discussion. OK. I am now ready to play my part. BTW- You did answer question 4. It is my inderstanding that you are to let me answer the questions myself. I will ignore your answer. Please ignore mine from above. 1. The Congress under the Articles of Confederation. 2. Ditto 3. I do not understand this question. 4. I do not know. Your turn. ---
**Author:** ![moocow891](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@moocow891](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moocow891)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/39 "2000-05-03T02:57:21Z")
I’m joining this discussion a little late, sorry. I disagree with the argeable on the fundamental question here. You state that the biggest problem with this country is greed, an excessive desire for things which you do not need and which will not bring you any happiness, probably not even much pleasure. You imply that this problem is caused largely by our government and society/culture. I would say that this entirely a question of our society, culture and core philosophies. I believe that any alteration to the government would not affect this at all. A revolution or similar event would bring with it a temporary spur of nationalism and a lack of greed, but this would fade and we would return to greed and corruption. I would counteract greed and corruption with by first analyzing our culture and seeing what seems to cause this greed. Let us begin with a statement you made yourself. We teach kids that a \successful\ person is one who does well in school, in order to do well in college, in order to do well in their career, in order to make moner, with which one purchases material goods. Therefore, we are teaching kids to closely associate material wealth with success. because it is a human instinct to seek happiness, we \assume\ success and happiness to be the same. We are, therefore teaching kids that material wealth will bring them happiness. When it does not, people naturally assume that they need more wealth to be happy, confusing the temporary pleasures it brings them with true happiness. I would propose a change to the educational system which would teach people not to associate material wealth with hapiness. I think that only by altering our society and the messages we hammer into everyone around us about success and material wealth. Btw, sorry if i screwed up some punctuation and stuff in this, i’m lazy and it’s 11:00 PM(it’s not that late, but i’m tired, ok?) also, this is essentially a largescale application of the Dalai Llama’s method of seeking happiness. It involves eliminating negative states of mind(self pity, desire, greed, etc.) and cultivating positive ones. If you’re interested you should pick up a copy of his book “The Art of Happiness”. Sorry i’m trying to turn a political argument into a more philosophical one, but i tink the core issue isn’t really about government. ---
**Author:** ![Argeable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5ac83/32.png) [@Argeable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argeable)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146/40 "2000-05-03T18:54:23Z")
Thanks for posting moocow- that’s kinda what I’ve been look at, in a weird way, reforming the education system… btw, have fun at the NiN concert tonight ~Dan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-a-new-government/18146.md?page=3)