# Is it time for Democrats to finally stand up against Obama before 2016 chances are gone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417 "2014-11-23T18:18:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/81 "2014-11-25T20:30:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Honest question for some of the staunch Obama defenders here: > > If the Republicans win it all in 2016, will you finally admit that at least politically, his administration was a total failure? Why does this matter so much to you? It won’t change my view of his accomplishments, though it will certainly change my view of how the public views his accomplishments. > [@](#): > > But in the wider context, the voters seem to be moving against him in a big way. Latino voters seem to moving towards him in a big way. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/82 "2014-11-25T20:40:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Technocratic as in everything should be subject to government regulation except the abortion industry. Ah, so you do not even understand what “technocratic” actually means, it is just a word you throw around because you think it sounds all scummy, like “communist” or “lieberal”. Got it. > [@](#): > > Besides, there’s no way Republicans can lose from a Warren candidacy. Either they’ll beat her, which is good, or she’ll win and be even more incompetent than Obama… Spare us your wet dreams. Obama’s biggest weakness is that he wants to be popular so he tries to follow a sort of reaganesque ideological track, which has peeved the genuine left to no end. We really cannot guess how a Warren administration would proceed, so suggesting that she would be “more incompetent than Obama” is blinkered, biased guesswork. And given her age, I would not expect her to do much pussy-footing around, she personally has less to lose. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/83 "2014-11-25T20:49:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why does this matter so much to you? It won’t change my view of his accomplishments, though it will certainly change my view of how the public views his accomplishments. Accomplishments have to be enduring. If the Republicans win in 2016, what enduring accomplishments will he have, other than that the Republicans can’t raise Osama bin Laden from the dead? > [@](#): > > Latino voters seem to moving towards him in a big way. Democrats lost some ground among Latinos in the last election. Be interesting to see what happens in 2016. Especially since it seems his executive action has damaged the cause of immigration reform: > **[Poll: U.S. split on Obama’s immigration move | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/politics/quinnipiac-poll-obama-immigration-move/index.html)** > > Americans are split over President Obama’s latest immigration move, a new nationwide poll shows. > [@](#): > > The number of Americans who believe those here illegally should be allowed to stay and given a path to citizenship has dropped since last November, however — now, only 48 percent believe they should stay, compared to 57 percent who said the same in 2013. > > And the number of Americans who say illegal immigrants should leave the U.S. is at an all-time high in the new poll. Thirty-five percent of respondents said they should be required to leave, up from 26 percent last year. Doesn’t matter if you win Latinos 80-20 if you lose voters overall. But if Democrats want to be the Latino party, they can knock themselves out. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/84 "2014-11-25T20:52:06Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Spare us your wet dreams. Obama’s biggest weakness is that he wants to be popular so he tries to follow a sort of reaganesque ideological track, which has peeved the genuine left to no end. We really cannot guess how a Warren administration would proceed, so suggesting that she would be “more incompetent than Obama” is blinkered, biased guesswork. And given her age, I would not expect her to do much pussy-footing around, she personally has less to lose. Managing the federal government is not easy. She has no experience managing anything. Therefore, she is likely to fail to manage the federal government. The real brick wall to liberals’ grand ideas isn’t the Republican Party: it’s the federal bureaucracy. Obama figured that out when the stimulus and ACA rollout didn’t go as planned. “shovel ready” projects got caught up in red tape, and who knew that the governments’ contracting procedures made a timely ACA rollout impossible? I mean, who could have predicted that the government would be an obstacle to those things? Heck, if a senile old actor can point out those flaws, I’m sure an Ivy Leaguer understands them, right? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/85 "2014-11-25T21:06:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I doubt it. That strikes me as exactly the campaign Walter Mondale tried to run. I sure don’t remember Walter Mondale taking on Wall Street and the big banks. > [@](#): > > I do think there’s plenty of room for economic populism in our political culture, but what liberals often don’t understand is that the Lou Dobbs/Pat Buchanan version of economic populism has just as much appeal among the working class as the liberal version. What version of economic populism is that - “you’re getting screwed, so you might as well lie back and enjoy it”? > [@](#): > > The problem with Warren’s extreme liberalism on other issues is that it paints her as a liberal, which means “not one of us” to a lot of working class voters. Jim Webb on the other hand brings an economic populism that encompasses both the right and left wing versions. He’s a little bit Warren, a little bit Buchanan. OK, you’re debating someone else. I was saying someone else could run on the same issues that are Warren’s forte, and appeal just as strongly anywhere. But quite honestly, I think if you set Warren down in Nebraska, she might surprise you. Americans like leaders to have the courage of their convictions, and they’re willing to put up with some differences if they feel that the candidate in question is basically on their side, and isn’t going to let them down on the big things. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/86 "2014-11-25T21:09:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Two straight Democratic administrations where incompetence was a daily headline? When was the first one? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/87 "2014-11-25T21:12:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I sure don’t remember Walter Mondale taking on Wall Street and the big banks. Ah, I get what you’re saying now. No, Mondale did run a very populist campaign centering on working class issues, however. He was an old New Dealer. Obviously, the more modern progressive populism that Warren embraces is a bit different, but I think the problem still remains the same: real economic populism crosses ideological lines. A strictly left or right wing version simply cannot catch on. WHich means Warren will also be judged on other issues. > [@](#): > > What version of economic populism is that - “you’re getting screwed, so you might as well lie back and enjoy it”? No, more like “foreigners are taking our jobs”, which resonates, especially when it’s consistent. The Democratic talking point of “Foreigners taking our jobs is only bad when they stay in their countries” is inconsistent, silly, and reeks of political expediency rather than conviction. At least the Buchanan/Dobbs/Webb types have identified the problem as they see it and address it without PC blinders on. > [@](#): > > OK, you’re debating someone else. I was saying someone else could run on the same issues that are Warren’s forte, and appeal just as strongly anywhere. > > But quite honestly, I think if you set Warren down in Nebraska, she might surprise you. Americans like leaders to have the courage of their convictions, and they’re willing to put up with some differences if they feel that the candidate in question is basically on their side, and isn’t going to let them down on the big things. I agree that a politician with convictions will do better than a candidate who doesn’t have them, most of the time. I just don’t think Warren’s economic agenda is all that likely to succeed in a place like Nebraska, especially once you challenge her on the math. How does she pay for just the first item on her agenda(increased SS benefits), much less the ones further down the list(more student loan subsidies). You can’t just tax the rich for everything. Mondale was honest about middle class tax increases. Will Warren be? And will that honesty help her or hurt her? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/88 "2014-11-25T21:15:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > When was the first one? Please: > **[2014 Veterans Health Administration controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Administration_scandal_of_2014)** > > The 2014 Veterans Health Administration controversy is a reported pattern of negligence in the treatment of United States military veterans. Critics charged that patients at the VHA hospitals had not met the target of getting an appointment within 14 days. In some hospitals, the staff falsified appointment records to appear to meet the 14-day target. Some patients died while they were on the waiting list. Defenders agreed that it was unacceptable to falsify data, but the 14-day target was unre... > **[IRS targeting controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy)** > > In 2013, the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS), under the Obama administration, revealed that it had selected political groups applying for tax-exempt status for intensive scrutiny based on their names or political themes. This led to wide condemnation of the agency and triggered several investigations, including a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) criminal probe ordered by United States Attorney General Eric Holder. Conservatives claimed that they were specifically targeted by t... > **[ATF gunwalking scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal)** > > Gunwalking, or "letting guns walk", was a tactic used by the Arizona U.S. Attorney's Office and the Arizona Field Office of the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), which ran a series of sting operations between 2006 and 2011 in the Tucson and Phoenix area where the ATF "purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them" - however as of Octo Each weapon... > **[HealthCare.gov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HealthCare.gov#Launch_and_technical_problems)** > > HealthCare.gov is a health insurance exchange website operated by the United States federal government under the provisions of the Affordable Care Act or ACA, commonly referred to as "Obamacare", which currently serves the residents of the U.S. states which have opted not to create their own state exchanges.\[better source needed\] The exchange facilitates the sale of private health insurance plans to residents of the United States and offers subsidies to those who earn between one and four t On Oc... > **[German Parliamentary Committee investigation of the NSA spying scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Parliamentary_Committee_investigating_the_NSA_spying_scandal)** > > The German Parliamentary Committee investigation of the NSA spying scandal (official title: 1. Untersuchungsausschuss „NSA“) was started on March 20, 2014, by the German Parliament in order to investigate the extent and background of foreign secret services spying in Germany in the light of the Global surveillance disclosures (2013–present). > The Committee is also in search of strategies on how to protect telecommunication with technical means. > The committee is formed by eight members of the Germ... In all five of these situations, the President knew nothing. No one is minding the store. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/89 "2014-11-25T21:35:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Please: > > [2014 Veterans Health Administration controversy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Administration_scandal_of_2014) > > [IRS targeting controversy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy) > > [ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal) > > [HealthCare.gov - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HealthCare.gov#Launch_and_technical_problems) > > [German Parliamentary Committee investigation of the NSA spying scandal - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Parliamentary_Committee_investigating_the_NSA_spying_scandal) > > In all five of these situations, the President knew nothing. No one is minding the store. These have to be five of the smallest examples of Presidential scandal and/or incompetence in history. All you’ve demonstrated to me is that Obama has run as close to a technically flawless and scandal-free Presidency as it is possible to do. Besides, when it comes to incompetence and scandal, shall we remind you that (a) GWB made a mess of both Iraq and New Orleans, and took our troops off the bin Laden hunt becausse he wasn’t important, (b) Reagan and Bush sold arms to Iranian radicals in order to sell arms to a bunch of right-wing Central American revolutionaries in direct contravention of laws passed by Congress, and (c) Nixon’s staff committed freakin’ _burglaries_. Breaking and entering. (I still wonder what they thought they’d find in Daniel Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office.) Which Nixon himself obstructed justice by his participation in the cover-up. Excepting Ford’s brief stewardship, that’s every GOP President since Ike. When it comes to incompetence and scandal, you guys are the gold standard, and the stuff you’ve brought up about Obama isn’t silver or copper, hell, it isn’t even tin. There are many legitimate grounds for criticizing Obama. Incompetence isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/90 "2014-11-25T21:50:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > These have to be five of the smallest examples of Presidential scandal and/or incompetence in history. All you’ve demonstrated to me is that Obama has run as close to a technically flawless and scandal-free Presidency as it is possible to do. I agree they mostly aren’t big scandals, except for the VA. But they are incompetence, and it establishes a pattern. That pattern is reinforced by the fact that he claims to not know anything. The reason why this is a bigger problem for Democrats than for Republicans is that Democrats say government can be effective. Under Obama, that has consistently not been the case. On his two biggest initiatives, the stimulus and the health care law, the bureaucracy got in the way of progress. In both cases, the President realized it after the fact, yet still hasn’t addressed the problems that led to the near sabotage of his most important accomplishments. And since this thread is mostly about politics, I think it’s fair in this context to observe that whether or not you believe he is competent, the public most certainly does not: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/07/28/president-obamas-competence-problem-is-worse-than-it-looks/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/07/28/president-obamas-competence-problem-is-worse-than-it-looks/) > [@](#): > > You can understand President Obama’s current political problems – and how those problems could make things very tough for his party in this fall’s midterm election – in a single word. And that word is “competence.” > > Obama was elected in 2008 on a stated promise that he would restore competence to government. He pitched himself as the antidote to “Heck of a job, Brownie” and the Bush years, the person who would always put the most qualified candidate in every job in his Administration. That the basic functioning of government would never be in question. > > Almost six years on from that election, however, Obama is faltering badly on the competence question and, in so doing, badly imperiling not only his ability to enact any sort of second term agenda but also Democrats’ chances this fall. A series of events – from the VA scandal to the ongoing border crisis to the situation in Ukraine to the NSA spying program – have badly undermined the idea that Obama can effectively manage the government. > > The latest evidence is a question in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll released Sunday that asks whether the phrase “can manage the government effectively” applies to Obama. Just more than four in ten (42 percent) said that it does while 57 percent said it does not. (It was the lowest that Obama scored on any of the six characteristic questions CNN asked in the survey.)p ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/91 "2014-11-25T21:56:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Accomplishments have to be enduring. If the Republicans win in 2016, what enduring accomplishments will he have, other than that the Republicans can’t raise Osama bin Laden from the dead? Getting us mostly extricated from disastrous wars – many, many fewer dead Americans than his opponents would have presided over. > [@](#): > > Democrats lost some ground among Latinos in the last election. If so, this was only due to turnout. > [@](#): > > Be interesting to see what happens in 2016. Especially since it seems his executive action has damaged the cause of immigration reform: Latinos, even Republican Latinos, overwhelmingly support his executive action. If Republicans keep harping about it, it will stick in everyone’s memory. It’s all about turnout. If turnout is high in 2016, the Democratic candidate will have an excellent chance. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/92 "2014-11-25T22:05:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Getting us mostly extricated from disastrous wars – many, many fewer dead Americans than his opponents would have presided over. That’s only an accomplishment if they don’t have to go right back. > [@](#): > > If so, this was only due to turnout. Why would turnout affect voting percentages? I’m not saying it can’t, but that would be troubling indeed, if the problem wasn’t a minority or youth turnout problem, but a DEMOCRATIC minority and youth turnout problem. > [@](#): > > Latinos, even Republican Latinos, overwhelmingly support his executive action. If Republicans keep harping about it, it will stick in everyone’s memory. Latinos make up 10% of the voting population. You actually cannot win elections with them anytime soon. > [@](#): > > It’s all about turnout. If turnout is high in 2016, the Democratic candidate will have an excellent chance. It’s not all about turnout. In 2006, the Democrats by all rights should have lost, because turnout looked very much like it did in 2010 and 2014. Take one look at these exit polls and you’ll see why they won: [http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/results/states/US/H/00/epolls.0.html](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/results/states/US/H/00/epolls.0.html) They lost the white vote by only 4 points. They won among every age group. The same voting base that defeated Democrats in 2010 and 2014 had elected them in 2006. If this executive order costs them even 2 points in the white vote, it’ll negate whatever gains they made with the Latino vote. There’s a reason the President delayed his announcement until after the election. Now he’s hoping that Latinos will remember while whites forget. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/93 "2014-11-25T22:11:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If this executive order costs them even 2 points in the white vote, it’ll negate whatever gains they made with the Latino vote. There’s a reason the President delayed his announcement until after the election. Now he’s hoping that Latinos will remember while whites forget. On the other hand, it may increase the white vote by 2 points. Some white people actually like this kind of stuff Obama is doing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/94 "2014-11-25T22:14:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s only an accomplishment if they don’t have to go right back. We don’t have to. Any ground troop involvement (and even airstrikes) are wars of choice. If troops die, those troops would die for another war of choice. The only way this would become a “we have to go” would be if ISIS launched a massive attack on the US. That’s less likely than NK and Iran teaming up and declaring war on us. > [@](#): > > Latinos make up 10% of the voting population. You actually cannot win elections with them anytime soon. It can make it much easier to win states like CO, NM, FL, VA, and more. > [@](#): > > If this executive order costs them even 2 points in the white vote, it’ll negate whatever gains they made with the Latino vote. There’s a reason the President delayed his announcement until after the election. Now he’s hoping that Latinos will remember while whites forget. I’m sure Republicans don’t like this, but I see no reason to believe that white Democrats oppose the action enough that they’d vote Republican or stay home. We’ll see. If Democrats can bring Latino turnout close to the level of black turnout, that would make them very formidable. And I’m still convinced that there’s a ‘firewall’ of white Democrats that, like myself, absolutely refuse to be part of any group that appears to be a “whites only”, or nearly whites only, group. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/95 "2014-11-25T23:28:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s hand-waving. Got any specifics? Pegging the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) as “government that knows better than you how to run your life” is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. It’s so easy, in fact, that Warren couldn’t get through the nomination to be Director of her own brainchild. The question at hand is why she would face trouble gaining support in red states. All of her major political dogs involve greater government regulation. That’s why. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/96 "2014-11-25T23:31:27Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > On the other hand, it may increase the white vote by 2 points. Some white people actually like this kind of stuff Obama is doing. It might. Or, even many liberals could be troubled by the precedent he’s setting. The ability to just decide not to enforce laws you don’t agree with is definitely a power that benefits the right more than the left. And rest assured, we will use it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/97 "2014-11-25T23:38:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We don’t have to. Any ground troop involvement (and even airstrikes) are wars of choice. If troops die, those troops would die for another war of choice. The only way this would become a “we have to go” would be if ISIS launched a massive attack on the US. That’s less likely than NK and Iran teaming up and declaring war on us. If we get attacked, we have to go. There is no not responding to a direct attack against the US. > [@](#): > > It can make it much easier to win states like CO, NM, FL, VA, and more. > > I’m sure Republicans don’t like this, but I see no reason to believe that white Democrats oppose the action enough that they’d vote Republican or stay home. > > We’ll see. If Democrats can bring Latino turnout close to the level of black turnout, that would make them very formidable. If Democrats lose the white working class as badly as they did in 2014, they will have to wait a long time for their demographic dreams to come true, regardless of how well Latinos and blacks turnout. It also isn’t helping that their support among young voters is consistently eroding, making Republicans competitive among that group. If they lose another five points among young voters in 2016, that will be lethal to their chances. > [@](#): > > And I’m still convinced that there’s a ‘firewall’ of white Democrats that, like myself, absolutely refuse to be part of any group that appears to be a “whites only”, or nearly whites only, group. How about if Republicans start winning the Asian vote again? That good enough for you? But really, I don’t think that’s much of a problem. The firewall, such that it exists, is predicated on the Democratic party being a party with support among all ethnic groups. If it becomes basically the “disaffected minorities” party there won’t be many white supporters left. White voters also don’t like politicians who denigrate rule of law. That’s the biggest problem with his executive order. It’s barely, barely, within the letter of the law, but it certainly violates the spirit, and this President would never support Republicans using such methods to achieve their policy goals in the face of Democratic opposition. Bush could have privatized Social Security this way. “Ya know, if employers and employees agree that they should keep their payroll tax money, I’m not gonna have the IRS go after 'em. Ya see, that’s my prosecuterist… er, prosecats, er, it’s my decision!” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/98 "2014-11-26T00:54:48Z")
Chuck Schumer says they should have addressed middle class economic concerns in 2010, not done health care: [http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2014-11-25/democrats-erred-by-acting-on-health-care-in-2010-schumer-says](http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2014-11-25/democrats-erred-by-acting-on-health-care-in-2010-schumer-says) That’s interesting, but as I recall, the debate wasn’t over health care vs. middle class economic concerns. It was actually health care vs. climate change! Talk about out of touch! Although given the two, health care is an issue more central to your average American’s concerns. If they’d tried to do climate change or even worse, immigration, they’d be even worse off. But that being said, it’s good to see Schumer say basically what I’ve been saying: > [@](#): > > Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) – Democrats made a mistake by passing President Barack Obama’s health-care law in 2010 instead of first focusing more directly on helping the middle class, third-ranking U.S. Senate Democrat Charles Schumer said today. > > “Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them” in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington. “We took their mandate and put all our focus on the wrong problem – health care reform.” > > Schumer said Democrats should have addressed issues aiding the middle class to build confidence among voters before turning to revamping the health-care system. He said he opposed the timing of the health-care vote and was overruled by other party members. Exactly. Instead of addressing the problems they were actually elected to fix they started going after long-desired Democratic priorities that were unrelated to the current problems. And thus they blew their mandate and we are where we are now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/99 "2014-11-26T00:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > “As 2014 began, the parties were in stalemate,” he said. “But, when government failed to deliver on a string of non-economic issues – the rollout of the Obamacare exchanges, the mishandling of the surge in border crossers, ineptitude at the VA and the government’s initial handling of the Ebola threat – people lost faith in the government’s ability to work, and then blamed the incumbent governing party, the Democrats, creating a Republican wave.” > > The 16-day partial government shutdown in October 2013, which caused Republicans’ approval ratings to plummet, created an opportunity for Democrats that was quickly eclipsed by the “disastrous” rollout of the Obamacare insurance exchanges, Schumer said. > ‘Glaring Example’ > > “The rollout was a glaring example of government’s ineffectiveness and became the perfect anecdote for the Republican’s anti-government argument,” he said. When even Schumer is acknowledging that this administration has hurt the activist government brand, can you all really deny it any longer? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417/100 "2014-11-26T01:15:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > His margin of victory in 2008 was unusually large. Few \*\*non-incumbents \*\*have won by such a massive margin. Obama’s margin of victory in 2008 was not remarkable. Clinton, Madison, Grant, Harding, Bush Sr., Eisenhower, Monroe, Hoover, FDR, and Reagan all won by a bigger Electoral College % margin in 1992, 1808, 1868, 1920, 1988, 1952, 1816, 1928, 1932, and 1980, respectively. Bush Sr., Taft, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Buchanan, Wilson, Hoover, FDR, Harding and Reagan won by a bigger popular vote % margin in 1988, 1908, 1860, 1952, 1856, 1912, 1928, 1932, 1920 and 1980, respectively. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-for-democrats-to-finally-stand-up-against-obama-before-2016-chances-are-gone/705417.md?page=6)