Is it time for nuke power?

I was going to weigh in here, but amazingly Der Trihs has pretty much hit all the high points I was going to make…and made them better than I would have.

Is it time for nuke power? Um…hell yes! It was time decades ago, and that was before the more recent, safer, cheaper advancements that have been made. OTHER countries are WAY ahead of the US in this reguard. THEY are making all the best advances in safety and cost effectiveness.

The US needs to go on a nuke power binge…if you environmentalist types are REALLY wanting to cut our emmissions then the US needs to decommission every coal and oil fired power plant in the US and replace them with nuke plants. Wind? Solar? Geothermal? Sure, they have their place…but they will never (well, not in the forseeable future) be able to scale up to meet even our current needs, let alone our future needs. Nuclear power however can scale up nicely.

One question I have though…what are the current estimated reserves for uranium or other potential nuclear fuels? I’ve always heard they were fairly small. What kind of time estimate do we have if the US goes, say, 80-90% nuclear in the next 20 or so years? How long could we sustain nuclear power at those levels? Anyone know?

-XT

When did arsenic become the alternative to radioactive waste, which is deadly for millenia?
When did research become “relying on something we don’t know”? Quite the opposite. I want a toaster-sized fusion plant in my laundry room. You betcha!
When did trying to keep a deadly substance away from people become “screwing things up”?
When did legitimate concerns become “paranoia”?
Part of the reason for the negative backlash for nuclear power is the industry’s insistance on pretending that it poses little or no danger to the populace. I was there. I remember the propaganda. The commercials showing cute little benign plants supplying unlimited power to millions of homes for practically no cost.
But all that is history, and isn’t really germane to the question.
We need to decide if nuclear power is now one of the answers to the problem of global warming.
Boy, this reminds me of all the negative hubub over hybrid cars.

People are incredibly bad at risk assessment.

Even counting the major fuckup in Russia, comparatively speaking how many people have been harmed by nuclear radiation from the power industry compared to effected negatively by arsenic poisoning?

Well, I’m fully with you here! I want that space elevator and the pony too!

Again, how great were the risks realistically speaking? What has the track record been? Compared to, say, the chemical industry? And how dangerous, again realistically, is it TODAY…when we have so many advances in the industry (well, WE don’t of course…but say looking at nuke power in France or South Africa)?

When you could realistically assess the actual dangers and weigh them against the benifits. NO power source is some kind of magic miricle silver bullet…they all have their dangers and drawbacks. Coal and oil are great…they are cheap and reasonably easy to extract from the ground. They only have those small draw backs that they tear up the land extracting it (at least coal does), and they are highly polluting. And of course they may eventually lead to massive global climate change. Nuclear certainly has its drawback too…it IS dangerous, which is why its so highly regulated. The problem has been that the anti-nuke crowd has kind of gone beyond ‘legimate concerns’ over nuclear power (which could be addressed through regulation and better engineering) to ‘paranoia’ in their knee jerk reaction to anything nuclear.

As I said, people really suck at risk assessment.

Well, part of the problem was the anti-nuclear fervor…which drove up the costs of nuclear power until it was nearly impossible to BUILD a nuke plant in the US. I was there too and I saw the OTHER side. The protests. The frenzy over a new (proposed) nuclear plant. The myriad law suits.

And well…how many people have died due to nuclear power in the US? How many people have been adversely effected by nuclear power? Its certainly a non-zero number…but I’d have to say that more people are probably effected by swallowing toothpicks in the US ever year than have been adversely effected by, or killed from nuclear power per year in the US. (This is just a WAG on my part by the way…I have no idea. Hell, for all I know more folks suffer detremental effects from tooth picks a year than have EVER had fatal accidents from nuclear power in the US for its entire history…including those who died or were harmed in the military).

The new age environmentals crowd certainly seems to think so. A lot of them are quite vocal against the old dino-environfacist crowd about this in fact.

Put your question this way if you like…what OTHER energy source will allow us to switch over realitively impact free (i.e. you can just insert it into the power grid and to the end user its transparent) and will scale up to not only our current needs but our future needs? I can’t think of a one to be honest. All the other power sources, geothermal, wind, solar, etc…they are ALL small scale and can’t meet even a large percentage of our needs. Alternatives are either somewhere out in the future or will have a large impact on society and even the planet.

The thing that the new generation of environmentalists have FINALLY realized is that we aren’t going to cut our energy consumption. Its not realistic, its not going to happen. If anything our needs are going to keep rising. So, we need to find ways to scale our energy consumption to those growing needs. And the ONLY thing (that I know of) that will scale is nuclear.

If you think there is a reasonable alternative that doesn’t include us dropping back to an 18th century (or prior) agrarian lifestyle (with a hell of a lot less people on the planet) then I’m all ears.

-XT

Because it’s a common poisonous byproduct, and it’s poison forever, not mere millenia. Nor is radioactive waste deadly that long, except in large amounts. By definition, the really deadly stuff has a short half life.

It’s not. Rejecting something we know works for an unproven technology is. We should do the research first, before relying on fusion.

Assuming it’s even possible, prepare to be dead of old age first. We can’t even build economically useful Great Big fusion plants yet; Mr Fusion is a ways off.

Pretending it’s so deadly that a few stray grams over a few thousand years = DOOM is screwing it up. Keeping it from being dumped into the rivers or allowed to blow on the wind is legitimate; pretending we need perfect containment for millions of years is silly.

And outside of Chernobyl - which happened because of Soviet incompetence, not nuclear power - where are the piles of dead bodies ? Where is the “danger” that’s so much greater than other industrial processes ? Sure, it’s dangerous if you screw around with it; you don’t want to deregulate nukes and let Bob the Handyman build one in his back yard. Properly made and maintained nuke plants are quite safe; that’s why the TMI “disaster” had zero casualties.

None of which has anything to do with safety, and only fools believe corporate propaganda anyway. For any industry, so let’s not pretend that makes nuclear power special; do you believe drinking beer will attract hordes of bikini clad girls ?

Yes; we have it, we know it works.

See how much more sensible I seem when you agree with me ? :slight_smile:

My memory is shaky on this; I think it’s centuries without breeder reactors, thousands of years with.

:wink:

I was in another discussion about this sometime in the past and a guy produced a cite that seemed to say about 50 years worth of easily extractable uranium exists…and this was at the current levels of consumption. I don’t think breeder reactors came into it.

I’d be interested if anyone knows. I’ve done a few searches but the answers seem pretty wild in there variation (from decades to centuries…even thousands of years on one)…and I have to admit I’m ignorant enough to not really understand the differences or be able to even assess WHY they are different and which is most reasonable.

-XT

I guess my “arsenic” statement wasn’t clear. What I meant was, do we have to choose between either arsenic or nuclear waste? Arsenic can be scrubbed out. It’s just that doing so is expensive.
Remember, I brought this question to this forum in a positive, hopeful light. But I don’t want another Love Canal type scenario. Corporate America has proven that we can’t simply let them go willy-nilly about their business. They are part of the cause of this invironmental mess we find ourselves. Critical questions and oversight are good things, usually. Those silly environmentalists have been screaming about it for how long?
Did you know that ostriches don’t really bury their heads in the sand?

And nuclear waste can (and HAS) been managed. Again, look over the alternatives and then assess nuclear power from that perspective. What else can scale up to meet our current and future needs? What else has so low an environmental impact? If there is another energy source that will both scale up (and be cost effective) and has a lower environmental impact then I’m all ears. I know of no such source myself but I’m always willing to learn.

Its a great point. The nuclear power industry (at least in the US) equivelent of Love Canal was TMI. What was its realistic impact? Was it greater or lesser than Love Canal? Were more people adversely effected by TMI or by Love Canal? Looking at the wider chemical industry, has this had a greater or lesser impact on people harmed or killed than the nuclear power industry? How about competetive power industries? Has coal had a greater or lesser impact on people harmed or killed than nuclear? Oil? (though I don’t think oil for power is in the same class as nuclears potential)

Is anyone suggesting we de-regulate the nuclear power industry? Or are you suggesting (as most of the old style environmentalists do) that the industry is some how under regulated today? And if so, on what basis? What statistics do you want to present that somehow nuclear power, even BEFORE the environmentalists got a bug up their ass about nuke power, is unsafe to the public? Its one of the more highly regulated industries we HAVE in the US…if not THE most highly regulated.

As to how long those silly (stupid?) enviro types have been screaming about nuke power…its been quite a while no doubt. Does the duration of the shreiking matter?? :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=327833&highlight=uranium

As it stands the US gets about 20% of its power from nuclear energy using about 100 plants. So it would take roughly 400 more plants of current capacity to become 100% nuclear.

Okay, Der Trihs, I’m all ears (eyes). You say that waste isn’t that dangerous for that long, right?
So how dangerous and for how long? When can I safely sit on a paint can (with the lid on) full of waste without being harmed. I could’t find the answer.
We seem to agree (sorry 'bout that ;)) except for duration.

Der Trihs made most of the points I wanted to make, but here’s another: There really isn’t any need to worry about nuclear wastes. Just let the really nasty ones decay for a few years, then cast the rest into glass bricks and stack them (not too close together) in the middle of White Sands or China Lake. Those areas are so off-limits and so dangerous anyway that a little nuclear material won’t add anything to the mix. Then just let them sit. Who knows what we might want to do with them in the future? Remember, the Romans thought oil was garbage and tossed it away when the found it in their water wells. The future will find a use for those wastes. We need to go nuclear, and we need to do it yesterday.

I saw a TV show once that talked about the issue. When a geiger counter was held to the storage unit of waste the amount of radiation was about the same as you experience flying on a plane. Once you get about 5 feet away radiation levels drop to background.

I think two people on this thread, who shall remain un-named, just want to argue. :wink:
How on Earth did I become an advocate for arsenic? Where did I say “let’s kill people with arsenic instead of nuclear waste.” Did I say “arsenic is good to eat?”
No.
Did I say “people are falling like flies because of nuclear accidents”?
No. Again.
And where did “let’s increase regulation” come from?
Not moi, I assure you
Did I say “let’s look at nuclear power”?
Well, yes I did.
Is the stuffing falling out of someone’s straw man? :stuck_out_tongue:

So. Are the nice folks who are to run our nuclear plants the same ones who now run our coal-fed plants?
Oh yeah, lest I forget; we got lots of natural gas. Some claim it’s even cleaner than nuke. The company I work for will sell us all we want.

Thanks, but Der Trihs was talking about how long the stuff would be poisonous.
True, it can be very well shielded.

I frequently hear that waste will be dangerous fo millions of years, this isn’t quite true. The part that will be dangerous is potential fuel, but it’s mixed with the real waste. If separated the waste would take up little space and be safe in maybe 600 years. The problems with separation are, cost and plutonium. There has been some interesting recent research into these problems.

That very solution was suggested long ago. I don’t know what became of the idea. But why let it sit, or cast into bricks? just dump it there.
BTW; there’s a lot of waste. Part of the waste is the stuff used to contain the waste.
Oh yeah, oil was garbage, wasn’t it.

What kind of waste, and what’s the paint can made out of, and for how long are you going to sit on it ? When I said it “wasn’t that dangerous for that long”, I was referring to the common idea that we need 100% containment for thousands/ millions of years.

Mind you, the high level stuff is really nasty while it lasts; you don’t want to let that out while it lasts; but it doesn’t last. A huge amount of the expense in disposal is due to this assumption that we need perfect, multi-thousand year storage. We don’t.

I’m not saying you should spread it on your sandwich any more than you would chemical waste; I’m just saying that it’s not going to bubble up and devastate the land in a thousand years, nor are a few stray particles going to hurt you.

Do coal plants lack smokestacks, contain no flammable parts, and are they sealed in a containment dome ? No ? False analogy.

Impossible. The carbon dioxide goes into the air, contributing to global warming. Nukes produce zero CO2.

Do you have a cite handy that its cleaner than a nuke plant? I think the arguement is its cleaner than a coal fired or oil fired plant…THATS probably true enough.

Are you seriously proposing that there is sufficient natural gas out there to scale up to the point it can take over for nuclear, oil AND coal? Do you have a cite handy that this is the case…its contrary to my understanding of the quantities of natural gas available. Hell, its contrary to economics…if NG was a viable alternative then it WOULD be a major energy producer…no?

-XT

Natural gas is radioactive! Run awaY! :smiley:

Basically the only reason for “bricking” the wastes is ease of transport and to prevent wind erosion and dispersal.

I didn’t make an analogy.
The claim, I think, includes the mining, processing, and transport of fuel. Natural gas arrives through pipes.
I doubt the claim myself, but can’t say for sure that it’s not true.
xtisme:
I said “lots”, I didn’t say nor imply, unlimited. But there is a lot. Vast amounts. look here
So why are you two so set against nuclear power?

I re-read my “claim”. I said nothing of the sort. Not even close. Go ahead, show where I did. Snip away. :smiley: