# Is it time to accept that we are alone in the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713 "2014-11-15T18:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/21 "2014-11-16T05:33:26Z")
There are fates worse than death. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/22 "2014-11-16T06:17:59Z")
Such as taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/23 "2014-11-16T06:26:03Z")
I think God put us here in this solar system for a reason. Yes, there is life out there but it is so far away it shouldnt even be a concern. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/24 "2014-11-16T06:29:05Z")
Unless there’s a shortcut… We can’t absolutely rule out hyperspace, wormholes, or the infinite uncertainty drive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/25 "2014-11-16T07:41:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Thar’s only two possibilities: Thar is life out there in the universe which is smarter than we are, or we’re the most intelligent life in the universe. Either way, it’s a mighty sobering thought. Porky Pine, _Pogo_ ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/26 "2014-11-16T11:52:22Z")
Quite a few people have thrown in that because of the vast distances involved, and the c speed limit, they might just not have got here yet. Fermi’s paradox would be trivial if that worked as a solution. But, in itself, it does not. A civilization could send out probes, or generation starships, and they wouldn’t need to go anywhere near c to explore a large proportion of the galaxy in “only” millions of years. In the scenario where advanced sentient life is common, and would be interested in communication, and has been around for, say, 1 billion years (not one specific species, just advanced intelligences have been around that long)…the whole galaxy could be swarming with alien bric a brac, and our planet could have multiple species’ probes in orbit around it without any violation of c. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/27 "2014-11-16T12:28:38Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > THere are half a dozen forums where the people talk about their constant contact with the greys and the other aliens. The newest I have been reading about fly around in ships about the size of a USA dollar coin and help old men to find young female humans for sexual partners. I haven’t found any of these to help me however. I believe that old men who have enough dollar coins, or their equivalent, are already able to find young female humans for sexual partners, without needing the assistance of any aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/28 "2014-11-16T13:40:28Z")
I’ve been hearing for a while now that the scientists who know the most about SETI think we will probably find something within the next couple dozen years - and I’m glad to hear this, because it means I’ll probably get to hear about it. The Drake Equation puts some very rough numbers on how hard we have to look, and how hard we look has been growing exponentially for decades. Thus, there are good reasons to think it’s likely. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/29 "2014-11-16T15:54:02Z")
There really is no good reason to think that we will discover intelligent life in that timescale. We might, and I hope we do; but there is nothing to indicate that we will. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/30 "2014-11-16T16:40:28Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I’ve been hearing for a while now that the scientists who know the most about SETI think we will probably find something within the next couple dozen years - and I’m glad to hear this, because it means I’ll probably get to hear about it. This isn’t like some scientific inquiries that can say they are getting close to an answer. I would love to hear the rationale for that optimism. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/31 "2014-11-16T18:19:58Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Quite a few people have thrown in that because of the vast distances involved, and the c speed limit, they might just not have got here yet. > > Fermi’s paradox would be trivial if that worked as a solution. But, in itself, it does not. A civilization could send out probes, or generation starships, and they wouldn’t need to go anywhere near c to explore a large proportion of the galaxy in “only” millions of years. > > In the scenario where advanced sentient life is common, and would be interested in communication, and has been around for, say, 1 billion years (not one specific species, just advanced intelligences have been around that long)…the whole galaxy could be swarming with alien bric a brac, and our planet could have multiple species’ probes in orbit around it without any violation of c. No doubt alien civilizations have already done some of those things, and eventually we will, too. Perhaps we will reconstitute ourselves into bionic forms to replace this ridiculously fragile organic form that we are presently stuck in, so that we will be not only robust but effectively immortal, and a journey of a million years need not be a problem – though time dilation within the ship could make the trip seem brief anyway. But none of that helps deal with the basic problem, which is not just the vastness of space but the extremely low density of anything in it – and the even lower density of life-bearing planets. Just for illustrative purposes look at the Voyager spacecraft, the only craft to have arguably left the solar system. 37 years later, there’s debate about whether they’ve technically even left the solar system at all, and the ETA for a random meeting with another planetary system is … essentially _ **never** _ – let alone a planetary system harboring intelligent life. Mainly because the odds of coming close enough to another star to go into orbit around it just by sheer chance within any imaginable timeframe is just about zero. Increase the speed by a factor of 1000, multiply the number of probes by a factor of 10,000, target the most likely stars, and the odds of an encounter with intelligent life still doesn’t get very much better. As I said before, even if there were a million such intelligent planetary civilizations in our galaxy, that is a probability of less than 0.001% of finding one on any given planet, and there are an enormous number of stars and they are very, very far apart. We would not, with alien civilizations engaged in such activities, find ourselves “swarmed by alien spacecraft” – we would find ourselves staring up at the night sky seeing nothing but distant stars and wondering if we’re alone, just as we’re doing. Space is just unimaginably huge, and it seems to me you’re taking an earth-centric intuitive view of it. It’s not at all like dropping a bottle with a note into the ocean and having it eventually pop up on some other continent to be discovered by a local resident – it’s a lot more like dropping a bottle into the ocean and having it disappear into eternity. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Unless there’s a shortcut… We can’t absolutely rule out hyperspace, wormholes, or the infinite uncertainty drive. True, we cannot. Perhaps someone can comment more specifically, but it seems to me that such a shortcut would imply very basic flaws in special relativity, where _c_ is an absolute limit on travel speed as a consequence of the more fundamental nature of simultaneity and causality in spacetime. To cite an example, if one imagines that advanced aliens 1000 light-years away were right now planning an expedition to earth, leaving tomorrow, and exploiting a wormhole that would allow them to get here in no time at all, they would already have arrived – indeed they would have arrived a thousand years ago and be entrenched in our established history. This sort of paradox suggests that if such wormholes exist at all, it’s easier to believe that they’re portals to an entirely different universe than a shortcut in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/32 "2014-11-16T18:28:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I don’t think life is possible at the center of the galaxy Why not? (serious question, not a challenge) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/33 "2014-11-16T18:48:35Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > THere are half a dozen forums where the people talk about their constant contact with the greys and the other aliens. The newest I have been reading about fly around in ships about the size of a USA dollar coin and help old men to find young female humans for sexual partners. I haven’t found any of these to help me however. Okay. I can’t ignore this post. Link? ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/34 "2014-11-16T19:33:53Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > A search shows that it been a while since we did this (though I admit my search skills suck). This article has some compelling evidence that we might be. Still the universe is a big To quioe Ned Flanders’ parents: “We’ve tried nothing, now we’re all out of options, man.” Even so, does it matter? It’s not like we’re keeping the place nice because we’re expecting company.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/35 "2014-11-16T19:42:12Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Why not? (serious question, not a challenge) It’s a hostile and extreme environment, with huge tidal forces as well as unreal radiation. There is a super-massive black hole there, and the stars going around it are going at incredible speeds. From what I recall nothing could live anywhere near the core, and the life zone is speculated to be pretty far from the galactic center…basically out where we are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/36 "2014-11-16T19:45:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …the life zone is speculated to be pretty far from the galactic center…basically out where we are. What a coincidence!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/37 "2014-11-16T19:52:07Z")
😛 Yeah, funny how that works out. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/38 "2014-11-16T19:59:26Z")
Actually I think we’re fairly far out on one of the galactic arms. We’re basically in an established Milky Way suburban subdivision, not really far out in the burbs, but still about 17,000 light-years from downtown and about 27,000 ly from the center. If the galaxy were a large city we might have subway service to downtown if we were lucky, but we’d probably be the last station on the line! ETA: Also we’re going to be [amalgamated by a much larger city](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda%E2%80%93Milky_Way_collision) in about 4 billion years! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/39 "2014-11-16T20:51:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > This isn’t like some scientific inquiries that can say they are getting close to an answer. I would love to hear the rationale for that optimism. Here is some. If I find more I’ll post it. > **[Will ET Be Here Soon? NASA Brings Scientists, Theologians Together To Prepare](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nasa-astrobiology-alien-search_n_5860714)** > > Will ET Be Here Soon? NASA Brings Scientists, Theologians Together To Prepare > **[NASA scientists say they're closer than ever to finding life beyond Earth](https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-nasa-looks-for-life-in-space-20-20140714-story.html)** > > If you believe there must be extraterrestrial life somewhere in the immensity of the universe, here's some good news: Top NASA scientists agree with you, and at a panel discussion on Monday, they said they were closer than ever to finding out for... “It is not hyperbolic to suggest that scientists could very well discover extraterrestrial intelligence within two decades’ time or less, given resources to conduct the search,” Seth Shostak, Senior Astronomer at the SETI Institute, said in testimony before the U.S. House Committee on Science, Space and Technology. > **[US Congress has close encounter over extraterrestrial life](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/04/us-congress-committee-extraterrestrial-life)** > > Witnesses from Nasa and MIT suggest to House committee that scientists may be on verge of breakthrough in search for aliens > **[Researcher says 'We are going to find life in space this century'](https://phys.org/news/2014-03-life-space-century.html#inlRlv)** > > Are we alone in the universe? It's a question that has always fired the human imagination. The more we learn, the more unlikely it seems that Earth is a lone miracle inhabiting life amid galaxies of lifeless planets. Many eminent scientists are... > **[There's probably alien life, and we may know soon](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-04/walter---mars-life/4240372)** > > There is a good chance we will know for sure before the end of this century whether there is extra-terrestrial life. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713/40 "2014-11-16T21:04:03Z")
Life exists in almost every nook and cranny on Earth. Even in very unfavorable conditions. This tends to demonstrate that life will arise wherever conditions allow. So it seems to me that Life will exist in many other places in our galaxy and the larger universe. This seems self-evident. But what is the frequency of technological, intelligent, civilizations? That is the real question. There are millions and perhaps have been billions of life forms that have developed in this environment at various times on Earth. But only one life form that has the ability to alter its environment and food supply. Dolphins are thought to be highly intelligent but they exist at the mercy of their living conditions. We can store food, bring the food supply to us, alter our living conditions so that we can survive the extremes of weather, drought, famine. Dolphins can travel to follow their food supply but can do little else to get through hard times. Almost all other forms of life on Earth exist the same way, at the mercy of thier environmental conditions. Only humans so far can alter those very conditions to facilitate our survival. We can transport ourselves to all areas on the planet, we can bring in food and other materials from any source on the planet to where they are needed. We can build structures, tools, clothing, etc that will allow our survival on any spot of the planet. And even survive in space. This ability to alter our living conditions to suit any possibility is what sets us apart from all other life forms that have ever thrived on this planet. And this trait is what accounts for the lack of signs other intelligent, technological life. This ability is probably very rare. Coupled with our society that allows cooperation between wars, and yes wars are a fundamental trait of our society and probably a motivating factor. We have developed a wanderlust that has driven us since before the first human set foot out of Africa. If other intelligent beings exist they will be products of their own environment. We have looked up at the moon, stars and planets and have wondered about them. What about an intelligent life form that develops on a planet with continual cloud cover? When would they even think about going off planet? Or a water world? Life exists anywhere it can possibly exist. Intelligence exists in a great many places. Technology exists only here, as far as we can tell. We can search and measure a very limited area of our local space. A small sample doesn’t mean much, but it means something. My personal opinion is that if we survive as an advancing, technological race, and if we ever expand into the galaxy at large, we will find that we are the Elder Race in this Milky Way. There are no alien civilizations because we are the first. Somebody has to be and it is us. We will not find anyone to talk to or fight with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-accept-that-we-are-alone-in-the-universe/704713.md?page=3)