# Is it time to declare war on Oil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901 "2010-06-29T05:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/41 "2010-06-30T03:52:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Maybe so, maybe no. You can assert this, but that doesn’t make it so. The US will still have global interests, even if we check oil off the list. -XT U.S. is in quagmire-land in the ME with or without oil from there. Any chance the U.S. adopts a sort-it-out-yourself attitude to the region, oil or no [my favored approach], if Iraq points missiles at Israel, neither of them having oil? Nil is my guess. It is also (I’ve always thought) naiive to say that the U.S. policy is massively skewed by oil. Oil is called a “commodity” for good reason. It all looks, tastes, and burns the same. What are the Saudis or Iraqis or whoever going to do if the U.S. doesn’t “engage” in the Middle East? Drink the stuff? As the failure of the food-for-oil program proved – foreign policy doesn’t have much to do with overall oil pricing or movement other than in the short term (suicidal boycotts), so other than in the short term, oil possession or non-possession by poor (or otherwise) ME countries won’t massively or primarily shape or distort U.S. policy. It’s not like the Saudis give the U.S. a discount or exclusivity deal over the oil they sell . . . it’s more that there would be a short-term dislocation if the wells were set on fire, imams took over for a few months, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/42 "2010-06-30T04:41:37Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Unless I found out that the energy companies were subverting nuclear or solar, I don’t know how they could really interfere with a more promising or efficient form of energy store. You’ll want a cite. Let me get back to you. > [@](#): > > In fact, most U.S. and global energy companies have massively hedged their bets with big investments in other energy sources – most obviously, for our short term purposes, natural gas. Are you aware just how much natural gas we’ve gained access to in just the past 2-3 years through horizontal drilling in the Barnett Shale, Marcellus, etc.? It is a number that almost no one would have imagined coming on line so massively, so fast. It seems likely the U.S. could meet a huge portion of its BTU requirements internally for the next 40 years. Unlike with hydrogen or solar or other green-beloved techs, natty gas is also readily fungible for many coal power plants (like, overnight) and could be retrofitted to much of our vehicle/gas station installation within . . . x years, x being less than ten if there were anything approaching an oil crisis. I’m not a big natty gas foe. I have to admit it can affect the trade balance. But I do not want transportation in general to shift onto natty gas. I think these resources are something that will be worth staggeringly more in the future, if only we bother to conserve them. Plus, this is still a carbon fuel. Separately from the war on oil, we need to reduce our use of carbon fuels. I’m cool with exploitation of natty gas, but puh-leeze do not go all-chips-in! > [@](#): > > Thing is . . . markets being devilishly dynamic and technology guys being devilishly clever . . . the odds of such an oil crisis are arguably waning, not waxing. Have you heard of the Eagle Ford oil shale play in So. Tex.? Industry estimates think we’re going to pump 900 millions bbl. from that in the next 10 years, give or take. In many cases it is best to leave oil shale alone. You can throw around big numbers of the total theoretical cache of hydrocarbons in the shale, but any realistic calculations needs to admit that the per-year yields are necessarily modest. I haven’t heard of it. I guess I don’t believe it. I could be persuaded. But I doubt I’d think it were a good idea. > [@](#): > > But what about China? China’s desperate for energy too, right? Sure (mutatis mutandis, if the double dip recession hits and the real estate bubble does pop). But have you heard of the Junggar, Tarim, or Sichuan shale plays in Western China? Look them up. Bottom line, there’s a lot of carbon (and a few non-carbon energy sources) in the world that can in a pinch be substituted for oil – and the pinch isn’t likely to be super-sudden or acute. I always remind myself that a bunch of idiot Nazis being bombed day and night managed, within the space of a few short years, to keep a hyper-modern wartime military/economy and transport system running (not so well on the civilian side perhaps) for about two years with effectively no native or accessible oil resources. Look dude. My line is not to convince the studio audience that you are stupid. I’ll look up those shale plays later, ok? The world today is not the world of 1945. The population is huge and still growing. We simply cannot afford to support them with fossil fuels long-term, oil in particular. We need a war on oil now. > [@](#): > > “Peak oil” isn’t a myth/oversimplification because there’s not a finite limit to the amount of carbon on Earth; it’s an oversimplification because of the failure to account for the multivariate interaction of easily recoverable oil, vs. recoverable oil [using today’s technology], vs. [recoverable oil using future exploration drilling and refinement technologies], vs. [cheapish oil substitutes/feedstocks], vs. [less cheap substitutes/feedstocks], vs. [other energy sources,] all taking place in a world of dynamic markets and economically rational scientists and businessmen. Peak oil is not the motive. > [@](#): > > So, no radical crisis, no dramatic crisis response required. “Sclerotic,” for instance, is hardly the word I would use for the super-rapid bringing on line of vast U.S. natty deposits – it was nimble, incredibly innovative, and potentially game-changing – and it took place in less than a decade. I can admire the exploitation of the natty gas reserves, but again I urge caution. The globe is quickly running out of easy carbon fuel deposits. This natty gas would wisely be portioned out over the long term. No radical crisis? Um, we have practically zero carbon-zero energy sources installed today. Please excuse my saying so, but your position is mad, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/43 "2010-06-30T04:51:46Z")
**xt** : Before I address your points, do you mind sharing your thoughts on the choice architecture of our current energy regime? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/44 "2010-06-30T04:53:58Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > No radical crisis? Um, we have practically zero carbon-zero energy sources installed today. Please excuse my saying so, but your position is mad, sir. One fifth of U.S. power consumption is nuclear- (i.e., no carbon sourced)-fueled. That is hardly “practically zero.” The ability of nuclear and NG to substitue for coal (in itself, a not-unsustainable, particularly on the domestic front, resource, but not very clean, resource) is far from “practically zero.” [http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm\_sum.html](http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html) [neutral AFAIKT but dense]. I love nuclear, to clarify any confusion. I love anything that makes economic sense and won’t kill us all [and none of the technologies under consideration come close to killing us all]. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/45 "2010-06-30T05:20:48Z")
Hurrah for nuclear, but you have yet to answer the 25,000 year question- what to do about the nuclear waste? Massive investment in Wyoming wind. Forget the cosmology or conservativism/leftyism factors. I mildly dislike Wyoming, but they got wind… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/46 "2010-06-30T06:44:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It wasn’t that long ago that oil meant whale blubber. Imagine, having the audacity to suggest not using whales to light our lamps! We’d all be living in the dark, that DARK! What are you going to do when the sun goes down?!? Whale blubber was not used to make medicines, cars, computers, clothing, houses, furniture… are you willing to stop using anything containing plastic or rubber? Most of the “rubber” around you came from an oil well, not a rubber tree. Anybody whose clothing contains polyester or spandex in any quantity, drop 'em? Yeah right. Oh, and anybody whose pantyliners, Depends, diapers or sanitary pads have adhesive or plastic, take 'em off. Oil isn’t used only for burning. ---
**Author:** ![ironbender](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ba8739/32.png) [@ironbender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ironbender)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/47 "2010-06-30T13:37:10Z")
We could still use oil to make the those things, although alot of that can be repalced by other materials, but we should rethink our transportation policies to use less oil. Rail is key to this, and you don’t need to electrify every line to do it. All the major cities could easily be supplied with goods by the mainlines that exist today. The electric- powered train would bring these goods to central warehouses in the cities. Then, electric -powered trucks would deliver the goods locally through out the city. People could then use electric cars, buses and trolleys to go get the things they need. More people working from home would also help. Airplanes could still be used, but basically only for long distance overseas trips. They would be huge A380 type planes to get the most bang for the buck. We could do this now, with the tech we have today, and it wouldn’t be like living in the 1900’s. It would be a great start to reduce oil dependency. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/48 "2010-06-30T13:48:44Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > We could still use oil to make the those things, although alot of that can be repalced by other materials, but we should rethink our transportation policies to use less oil. > > Rail is key to this, and you don’t need to electrify every line to do it. All the major cities could easily be supplied with goods by the mainlines that exist today. > > The electric- powered train would bring these goods to central warehouses in the cities. Then, electric -powered trucks would deliver the goods locally through out the city. > > People could then use electric cars, buses and trolleys to go get the things they need. More people working from home would also help. > > Airplanes could still be used, but basically only for long distance overseas trips. They would be huge A380 type planes to get the most bang for the buck. > > We could do this now, with the tech we have today, and it wouldn’t be like living in the 1900’s. It would be a great start to reduce oil dependency. What powers the “electric train?” Just asking. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/49 "2010-06-30T13:53:22Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > In fact, most U.S. and global energy companies have massively hedged their bets with big investments in other energy sources – most obviously, for our short term purposes, natural gas. Are you aware just how much natural gas we’ve gained access to in just the past 2-3 years through horizontal drilling in the Barnett Shale, Marcellus, etc.? 2.5 trillion cubic feet at Barnett, and maybe a comparable amount at Marcellus? I never said it was a joke. > [@](#): > > It is a number that almost no one would have imagined coming on line so massively, so fast. It seems likely the U.S. could meet a huge portion of its BTU requirements internally for the next 40 years. But it is limited in the same way oil shale or oil sands are limited: by water. Consider this quote from [here:](http://www.expertsreviewof.com/) > [@](#): > > Due to the fact that it is a low porosity, low pressure gas formation it requires a serious “frac job” or fracturing of the rock formation, by a company such as Halliburton to produce gas. The fracturing process requires massive amounts of water, which is injected under extreme pressure to fracture the rock and allow it to release gas. This need for large amounts of water has put a strain on surface water supplies in the areas where Barnett shale directional drilling is concentrated. That isn’t the ‘green’ or ‘eco’ view- this is from what appears to be a pro-gas site. I am open to having any ignorance on my part fought, but for now I remain solidly unconvinced that we can transition (sensibly) to these sources on an overall scale. The deposits are big, but water is too scarce to run transportation entirely on shale gas and oil. China will face the same situation. > [@](#): > > Unlike with hydrogen or solar or other green-beloved techs, natty gas is also readily fungible for many coal power plants (like, overnight) and could be retrofitted to much of our vehicle/gas station installation within . . . x years, x being less than ten if there were anything approaching an oil crisis. I haven’t seen anything to suggest hydrogen is practical. And please quit calling me ‘green’ or ‘eco-’ whatever. I don’t deny that nat gas is useful. I deny that we can shift from importing oil to relying entirely on shale gas and oil. Mainly because the yield is limited by water. Also because these are not carbon-free energy sources. It doesn’t take an eco-nut to point out that continuing to base our economy on carbon-emitting fuels is a long-term loser. So we want to avoid a situation where we do nothing because there is no immanent crisis, then shift to natural gas by default when/if the shit hits the fan. The T Boone Pickens types like that plan, but I don’t. > [@](#): > > Thing is . . . markets being devilishly dynamic and technology guys being devilishly clever . . . the odds of such an oil crisis are arguably waning, not waxing. Have you heard of the Eagle Ford oil shale play in So. Tex.? Industry estimates think we’re going to pump 900 millions bbl. from that in the next 10 years, give or take. But what about China? China’s desperate for energy too, right? Sure (mutatis mutandis, if the double dip recession hits and the real estate bubble does pop). But have you heard of the Junggar, Tarim, or Sichuan shale plays in Western China? Look them up. Bottom line, there’s a lot of carbon (and a few non-carbon energy sources) in the world that can in a pinch be substituted for oil – and the pinch isn’t likely to be super-sudden or acute. Again, these sources will be limited by water. The more they are relied on to replace conventional oil, the more they will lose their shine. I’m advocating moving away from oil without waiting for a ‘pinch’ or crisis. Wind, solar, algae, nuclear (though everyone changes the subject away from the 25,000 year question) are better long-term solutions. A water crisis in a shale-gas glut would still be a nasty outcome. The current status quo leads to nasty outcomes. To ignore carbon-free energy sources is simply not realistic (and to respond to that point with eco-snark isn’t an answer). But I acknowledge your points and expect these resources to be developed in the future. Please don’t assume I’m out to kill these projects. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/50 "2010-06-30T13:54:50Z")
I would like to declare war on the concept of declaring war on something that is not a nation-state. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/51 "2010-06-30T13:58:03Z")
> [@ironbender](#): > > We could still use oil to make the those things, although alot of that can be repalced by other materials, but we should rethink our transportation policies to use less oil. > > Rail is key to this, and you don’t need to electrify every line to do it. All the major cities could easily be supplied with goods by the mainlines that exist today. > > The electric- powered train would bring these goods to central warehouses in the cities. Then, electric -powered trucks would deliver the goods locally through out the city. > > People could then use electric cars, buses and trolleys to go get the things they need. More people working from home would also help. > > Airplanes could still be used, but basically only for long distance overseas trips. They would be huge A380 type planes to get the most bang for the buck. > > We could do this now, with the tech we have today, and it wouldn’t be like living in the 1900’s. It would be a great start to reduce oil dependency. Um…would you pass a law saying that “Airplanes could still be used, but basically only for long distance overseas trips” Requiring that no one work more than 5 miles from home? At this point, the market dictates those things. As oil prices have gone up, so have airline tickets. If they go down, so will airline tickets. Practically no one would change their lifestyle unless the price goes way up, driving up the cost of travel, plastic, etc. At that point, the market will step in, and find different, cheaper ways to do things. Just, please - no more wind power. It’s stupidly inefficient, pisses resources away, and looks terrible. The acres of wind farm in my part of Indiana has made the prairie look like a industrial area. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/52 "2010-06-30T14:23:08Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > May I clear up a few things? Given the responses made so far, one does rather doubt that. > [@](#): > > -The idea isn’t rubbish, **WMFellows**. Quite right, it’s rubbish AND daft to boot. It has neither merit as a stylistic device nor merit as a good means of organising policy. It is hackneyed, superficial and trite, as well as confused and woolly headed. The remainder of your writing it superficial, largely emotive and entirely woolly headed. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Hurrah for nuclear, but you have yet to answer the 25,000 year question- what to do about the nuclear waste? Recycle until end of life-cycle, then store. Rather simple really, if it were not for the woolly headed thinking that attaches “radioactive” to some entirely irrational emotive reaction, rather than proper logical risk analysis. > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I would like to declare war on the concept of declaring war on something that is not a nation-state. One should hope so. However the comment right above against wind is silly. Aesthetics is not a proper way to judge wind. It has its place in an energy mix. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/53 "2010-06-30T14:24:33Z")
[QUOTE=ironbender] Rail is key to this, and you don’t need to electrify every line to do it. All the major cities could easily be supplied with goods by the mainlines that exist today. [/QUOTE] What would it cost and how long would it take to convert the countries rail lines to run on electricity? What would it entail? > [@](#): > > Then, electric -powered trucks would deliver the goods locally through out the city. Same question. What would it cost to replace large portions of our current trucking with electric powered trucks? How long would it take to make the transition? What additional infrastructure would be required that doesn’t exist? What new training would be needed? > [@](#): > > People could then use electric cars, buses and trolleys to go get the things they need. How will you force people to buy electric cars…and how long will it take manufacturers to ramp up to meet demand? How much will THAT cost?? What’s the time frame for all this stuff? Also, same questions as above…what new infrastructure would need to be built to support all this, what new training, etc etc? We are talking trillions here…maybe 10’s of trillions. Over what time period? And who is going to pay for it all? I know it’s a dirty word, but personally, instead of trying to dictate changes as drastic as these by fiat (and almost certainly being wrong), simply let the market decide. As the price of oil goes up people will be looking for alternatives, and companies will be looking for various ways to provide them. This is already happening. Companies are already researching and developing (and even attempting to market) alternatives. People are already starting to consider their options…and all this is happening at a time when the price at the pump is still relatively low. Instead of a dippy ‘war on oil’, or dictating solutions by government fiat, why not just raise the tax on oil to set the price at the pump at something between $4-$5/gallon? Invest the extra money in a series of X-prizes or use it to pay off the national debt. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/54 "2010-06-30T14:28:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The acres of wind farm in my part of Indiana has made the prairie look like a industrial area. Yes, all energy should be produced someplace else. Someplace that’s Not In My Back Yard. And then it should be wrapped up in a tasteful package and discretely slipped under the backdoor of my house. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/55 "2010-06-30T14:29:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Hurrah for nuclear, but you have yet to answer the 25,000 year question- what to do about the nuclear waste? Stick it in a containment facility somewhere and stop pretending that it needs to be treated with such ridiculous paranoia. The problem with nuclear waste is political not technological. No, if some tiny leak develops in a thousand years it’s not some big deal. For that matter, it’s quite likely that our descendants will just dig it up and use it for some purpose we haven’t thought of yet. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/56 "2010-06-30T14:29:55Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Whale blubber was not used to make medicines, cars, computers, clothing, houses, furniture… are you willing to stop using anything containing plastic or rubber? Most of the “rubber” around you came from an oil well, not a rubber tree. Anybody whose clothing contains polyester or spandex in any quantity, drop 'em? Yeah right. Oh, and anybody whose pantyliners, Depends, diapers or sanitary pads have adhesive or plastic, take 'em off. > > Oil isn’t used only for burning. OMG you are absolutely right! I was cooking last night and went to put some EVOO extra virgin olive oil in the pan and thought, “what would I do without my EVOO extra virgin olive oil?!” The same way the war on drugs didn’t literally mean a ban on prescription morphine, the war on oil doesn’t have to mean a ban on anything even remotely pertaining to long chain fatty acids. And as I said before, if we are as dependent on oil as you say, shouldn’t that be a serious wake up call? ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/57 "2010-06-30T14:43:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, all energy should be produced someplace else. Someplace that’s Not In My Back Yard. And then it should be wrapped up in a tasteful package and discretely slipped under the backdoor of my house. Yes, that’s right. I prefer not to have giant wind farms stretched out over 100,000 acres of what used to be rolling green hills of crops. It looks terrible; to me just as bad as strip mining. At least strip mining is low to the ground - I used to be able to drive down I65 and look over the horizon, now all I see is wind mills packed closely together. But I guess ruining the visual environment is okay as long as we get clean efficient natural energy! Oh wait: "Despite shutting down when the winds are particularly fearsome, midwestern wind farms typically generate 30-35 percent of theoretical maximum output. Texas wind farms, for comparison, generate 40-45 percent. " That’s from our one and only Cecil Adams, from his column [here](http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20091224.php). ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/58 "2010-06-30T14:48:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What would it cost and how long would it take to convert the countries rail lines to run on electricity? What would it entail? Have you ever seen an electric train? There are essentially two variations, one is to run current through the tracks, the other is to use overhead wires. The first is easy but dangerous. The other is just a matter of running an overhead electrical wire the length of the rail line. Not free, not instant, but certainly doable. Would also mean a massive boost for the steal industry. [Here](http://www.khi.co.jp/sharyo/pro_final/train/jre_400_1.jpg) are [two](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2841291019_a2336082a3.jpg) pictures. > [@xtisme](#): > > Instead of a dippy ‘war on oil’, or dictating solutions by government fiat, Why not instead of ridiculing a person’s ideas, try using some civility. > [@xtisme](#): > > why not just raise the tax on oil to set the price at the pump at something between $4-$5/gallon? Invest the extra money in a series of X-prizes or use it to pay off the national debt. > -XT This is a great idea, one suggested frequently. Unfortunately, when you consider that the dude in Phoenix needs to get to work, now you’ve just raised his cost of living. He HAS to drive, now it’s just more expensive. It’s really too bad that new subdivisions and suburbs were never required to incorporate public transit. A lot of new ones that I’ve seen don’t even bother with side walks. Minneapolis, MN, recently started a [commuter rail line](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northstar_Line) running from the northern suburbs to downtown. One of the stops was about 4 miles from where I used to live, but it was completely inaccessible by anything other than car. I remember trying to find a bus route to get me to it. The route was 65min, and involved taking a 35min bus downtown, switching, then taking a bus 30min back to the station 4 miles from where I lived! Switching off oil would definitely involve at some point raising the tax on gas and oil, I just think it needs to be paired with other options. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/59 "2010-06-30T14:50:16Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Not free, not instant, but certainly doable. Would also mean a massive boost for the steal industry. It always does, it always does… ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901/60 "2010-06-30T14:54:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It always does, it always does… I assume at some point we’ll declare war of steel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-declare-war-on-oil/544901.md?page=4)