# Is it time to pull out of Iraq regardless? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058 "2005-07-25T15:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/161 "2005-07-29T04:49:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Something to indicate that the reforming Iraqi military is sectarian and will fragment when/if we leave? Sure do, assuming that the forces aren’t composed of an entirely homogenous group of Shi’a or Sunni or Kurd. It is a mixture with loyalty to their brand of religion and to the tribal affiliations which you spoke of. They have no loyalty to this bullshit Iraqi democracy. We know it’s bullshit so what makes you think they don’t? Purple finger? That’s not ink repub, that’s blood on your hands. > [@xtisme](#): > > As for the rest, did I mention democracy anywhere? I don’t think I did. If you want to point out to me where I did though I’ll gladly retract it. I think (since you asked so nicely) that the Iraqi military will be ‘loyal’ to Iraqi nationalism and to whatever government eventually emerges… When it is implied that all we have to do is train the Iraqi troops and that they are getting better everyday, we assume that they are going to do the job that they are being trained and in place to do. That is, defend the fledgling pro-Western puppet democracy and stamp out the insurgency, spreading the brotherhood of globalism and democracy throughout the Middle East. > [@xtisme](#): > > You seriously think anything we could teach the Iraqi’s is going to make them into a force that can take on Israel? **YES** or are you one of those who believe that Israel has some sort of magical ability to win wars regardless of who they are up against? They do not–their opponents are just horrible at fighting. Some would argue that they aren’t winning as well as they once did and it is getting harder and harder to defeat their enemy each time out. How did that Lebanon thing work out? Besides, how much could our righteous Western style warfare techniques and weapon systems help? > [@xtisme](#): > > We aren’t teaching the Iraqi’s better terrorist tactics (I think the terrorists are developing and exporting those on their own, and they have been refining them long before the US invaded Iraq…see Afghanistan) here but our own style of fighting. Thats not exactly going to be useful to the terrorists as if they attempt to fight a stand up set piece battle with ANYONE they will have their asses handed to them…in small bloody fragments. Their style is successful by avoiding large scale engagements. How are my pearls of wisdom any worse than this? The terrorists/insurgent are not fighting a “terrorist” war, they are fighting what is called an insurgency war or a guerilla war. They hide amongst the population growing in strength, using terror against that population if they have to, striking behind the lines (everywhere is technically enemy territory), eventually growing to the point where they can then engage their enemy on an equal conventional footing. Che really wrote a nice book about this, you should read it. > [@xtisme](#): > > We taught the Shaws forces everything we knew AND gave them advanced weapons systems… What I am most afraid of is that we are teaching them discipline and resolve in warfare. You can give them advanced weapon systems and a few advisors but that is not the same as giving them that _and_ the know-how on how to train more forces and how to fight by fighting side by side with them on a daily basis. The Shah of Iran bought high tech weapons like F-14 fighters but how much modernization did the actual grunt receive? I will however concede that throwing money and fighting side by side with us did not help the South Vietnamese but then again, this is a different conflict with many more players. > [@xtisme](#): > > You are making an awful lot of assumptions about my positions…which seem to all be wrong. I don’t have any desire to ‘win this war’… Next time unload your ‘GW Bush fucking sucks’ tape recorded rant on an actual Bush supporter, ok? I’m talking about winning this war. George Bush fucked us up real good on this one. It is not as simple as ideologues on the right make it out to be. GW does suck and I celebrate the catalogue from which this tape comes from. As for you not being a Bush supporter, I have read many of your posts. You could have fooled me! We have a saying where I come from: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it’s a duck. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/162 "2005-07-29T05:06:48Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Something to indicate that the reforming Iraqi military is sectarian and will fragment when/if we leave? Sure do, assuming that the forces aren’t composed of an entirely homogenous group of Shi’a or Sunni or Kurd. It is a mixture with loyalty to their brand of religion and to the tribal affiliations which you spoke of. They have no loyalty to this bullshit Iraqi democracy. We know it’s bullshit so what makes you think they don’t? Purple finger? That’s not ink repub, that’s blood on your hands. > [@xtisme](#): > > As for the rest, did I mention democracy anywhere? I don’t think I did. If you want to point out to me where I did though I’ll gladly retract it. I think (since you asked so nicely) that the Iraqi military will be ‘loyal’ to Iraqi nationalism and to whatever government eventually emerges… When it is implied that all we have to do is train the Iraqi troops and that they are getting better everyday, we assume that they are going to do the job that they are being trained and in place to do. That is, defend the fledgling pro-Western puppet democracy and stamp out the insurgency, spreading the brotherhood of globalism and democracy throughout the Middle East. > [@xtisme](#): > > You seriously think anything we could teach the Iraqi’s is going to make them into a force that can take on Israel? **YES** or are you one of those who believe that Israel has some sort of magical ability to win wars regardless of who they are up against? They do not–their opponents are just horrible at fighting. Some would argue that they aren’t winning as well as they once did and it is getting harder and harder to defeat their enemy each time out. How did that Lebanon thing work out? Besides, how much could our righteous Western style warfare techniques and weapon systems help? > [@xtisme](#): > > We aren’t teaching the Iraqi’s better terrorist tactics (I think the terrorists are developing and exporting those on their own, and they have been refining them long before the US invaded Iraq…see Afghanistan) here but our own style of fighting. Thats not exactly going to be useful to the terrorists as if they attempt to fight a stand up set piece battle with ANYONE they will have their asses handed to them…in small bloody fragments. Their style is successful by avoiding large scale engagements. How are my pearls of wisdom any worse than this? The terrorists/insurgent are not fighting a “terrorist” war, they are fighting what is called an insurgency war or a guerilla war. They hide amongst the population growing in strength, using terror against that population if they have to, striking behind the lines (everywhere is technically enemy territory), eventually growing to the point where they can then engage their enemy on an equal conventional footing. Che really wrote a nice book about this, you should read it. > [@xtisme](#): > > We taught the Shaws forces everything we knew AND gave them advanced weapons systems… What I am most afraid of is that we are teaching them discipline and resolve in warfare. You can give them advanced weapon systems and a few advisors but that is not the same as giving them that _and_ the know-how on how to train more forces and how to fight by fighting side by side with them on a daily basis. The Shah of Iran bought high tech weapons like F-14 fighters but how much modernization did the actual grunt receive? I will however concede that throwing money and fighting side by side with us did not help the South Vietnamese but then again, this is a different conflict with many more players. > [@xtisme](#): > > You are making an awful lot of assumptions about my positions…which seem to all be wrong. I don’t have any desire to ‘win this war’… Next time unload your ‘GW Bush fucking sucks’ tape recorded rant on an actual Bush supporter, ok? I’m talking about winning this war. George Bush fucked us up real good on this one. It is not as simple as ideologues on the right make it out to be. GW does suck and I celebrate the catalogue from which this tape comes from. As for you not being a Bush supporter, I have read many of your posts. You could have fooled me! We have a saying where I come from: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it’s a duck. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/163 "2005-07-29T05:10:18Z")
delete one of that double post por favor 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/164 "2005-07-29T10:01:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think he was pretty clear in stating he’s talking about the (not so) recent shift by the 'insurgent’s, a.k.a. glorious freedom fighters similar to our American revolutionaries, to attacking civilian targets…you know, deliberately killing non-combatant men, women and children. Not incidental fire or civilians who just happened to be in the way of a roadside bomb aimed at Americans, but those glorious insurgents who drove car bombs or strapped explosives to themselves and walked into busy markets or a crowded mosque. It takes a brave man to kill a bunch of women and children deliberately in a mass attack ehe? > > How exactly is such behavior justified? Because American soldiers raped and tortured, or allowed members of the Iraqi military to do so, that means you can deliberately target women and children? I suppose you could then say that the US/Iraqi soldiers who tortured, murdered and raped were justified…after all, Saddam did it…right? “A reasoned answer with logic, not a rant please.” > > -XT As I clearly was talking about the right to target occupiers as distinct from terrorist activities I’m ignoring your straw man. Have they the right to fight a guerilla war against occupiers or not? When the occupiers are killing civilians, bombing wedding parties and flattening cities you have precious little moral high ground to rant from anyway. Neither side should be performing these atrocious acts. And no - the suspicion that a civilian might be up to no good does not give occupiers the right to casually blast them away. And no - that insurgents are in a city does not give them the right to shell and bomb it to rubble. These are just as war crimes as terrorist acts are. Neither are excusable. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/165 "2005-07-29T12:29:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Obviously I disagree. What do you base this ‘certainty’ on btw? > > -XT I base it on [reports like the following](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=1&u=/usatoday/20050729/ts_usatoday/forcombatwearymarineseachstintaddstothestrain) that are not filtered through the unrealistic optimism of the Bush machine: > [@](#): > > Ramadi, a city of 250,000 people along the Euphrates River, is the capital of volatile Anbar province, which includes Fallujah and stretches west to the borders of Jordan and Syria. The governor here is the third in as many months. The first one quit out of fear of reprisal for working with Americans. The second was assassinated. > > Tips about insurgent activities in the city have been increasing, Lt. Col. Smith says. Still, the largely Sunni Arab population here seems either indifferent toward or outright supportive of the guerrillas. Barely a thousand people here participated in elections in January. > > Clerics have routinely preached violence against Marines. Early this month, loudspeakers from the Saman Mosque in Ramadi blared: “My God: Victory to the enemy of America!” > > Marines estimate that there are roughly 2,000 potential insurgent fighters here, rallied by a hard core of perhaps 150 full-time combatants skilled at sniping and roadside bomb ambushes. Suicide car bombers are also a threat. > > “They kill us. We kill them,” Smith says grimly. He could easily use two more battalions of about 850 Marines each, he says. > > With the assistance of two Army battalions operating on the city edge, the Marines have incrementally brought limited security to Ramadi. They do this by aggressively sending out daily and hazardous “presence” patrols, on foot or in armored vehicles. The official acronym for this work is Security and Stability Operations, or SASO. > > Marines call it “SASO World” and see it as anything but secure. “SASO World is 10 times scarier than any offensive,” Jimmy Welter says. “In SASO World, like Ramadi, you don’t know where the enemy is at. He could be anywhere.” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/166 "2005-07-29T13:17:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You hit your enemy where you think it is most vulnerable. Period. So you do support the insurgents when they blow up children. Ok. That’s insane and evil. But, Ok. At least it’s logically consistent with the rest of your views. > [@](#): > > [Not my fault you suffer from Alzheimer’s and I don’t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6407616&postcount=62): That quote has nothing to do with my statement. You are just pulling a random phrase I posted and saying it proves something it clearly does not. I’ll repeat. I have never said or implied that the insurgents are only attacking children. This reamains a staw fantasy of yours. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/167 "2005-07-29T14:03:43Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > That’s not ink repub, that’s blood on your hands. Yeah, **XT** , you right-wing pro-war Republican you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/168 "2005-07-29T15:37:58Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yeah, XT, you right-wing pro-war Republican you. You know me…always the first to jump up and defend Bushco. 😉 Rjung has been trying to pin the closet republican lable on me for years now so I guess I should be used to it. On of the things in his rant that struck me as funny was the ‘fact’ that I guess (according to The Highwayman anyway) I think the Israel’s military pre-eminence comes from magic or perhaps prayer…or maybe their innate Jewish superiority or something. 😛 I had a long response typed up for him/her last night but after previewing it I ended up just deleting it. For one thing had I posted it I probably would have been banned or at least spanked by a mod. For the other I just didn’t see the point ‘debating’ someone who is obviously that hostile. It’s just not worth my time. -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/169 "2005-07-29T16:32:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It’s just not worth my time. > -XT One can only do so much. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/170 "2005-07-29T17:03:17Z")
Cites, please. Multiple cites, if you would. Oodles of Google. So many times in this thread I witness flat-footed statements about the nature and structure of the _insurgency_, whatever the hell that means. Stated with the calm authority so common when the assertion amounts to pure butt-whistle. “The insurgents are terrorist religious fanatics who dine on babies and tie puppies to their hand grenades.” “The insurgents are patriots nobly resisting infidel occupation.” I have no idea. Since I modestly recognize my own ignorance, it is not at all difficult to recognize another’s. \*You \* have no idea. I hazard a WAG: there must be at least two entirely different components of the “insugurgency”: secular/political and religious fanatic. The painfully obvious fact that they both hate us may be the only point of agreement. I base this assertion on the only clue I’ve got: tactics. Suicide bombing is characteristic of a religious fanatic who believes that Merciful Og, in Her wisdom, smiles benignly on those who massacre Her children if their theology is correct. Hence, they not only do not fear death, they positively welcome death as a confirmed reservation in Paradise. Secular activists, like the legendary “Baathist dead-enders”, tend to be less willing to use their own ass for a fuse. But if I were to declare with a straight face that the insurgency was entirely comprised of Amish renegades masquerading as Arabs, could anyone here authoritatively prove otherwise? Do we have any facts at all, rather than bald assertions by persons possessed of an Agenda? If you have, please forward them toot damn sweet. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/171 "2005-07-29T17:09:30Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So you do support the insurgents when they blow up children. Ok. That’s insane and evil. But, Ok. At least it’s logically consistent with the rest of your views. Never said that. In fact, I’ve gone down the list of incidents in a random day in Iraq and deliniated which I consider legitimate resistance actions. The quote you’re responding to alludes to the sabotage of the water supply. And yes, sabotage is a common activity in guerrilla warfare. As for killing children, where’s YOUR outrage when it’s [YOUR side doing the butchering](http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_iraqichild.jpg)? Warning: graphic link. > [@](#): > > That quote has nothing to do with my statement. You are just pulling a random phrase I posted and saying it proves something it clearly does not. I’ll repeat. I have never said or implied that the insurgents are only attacking children. This reamains a staw fantasy of yours. And I’ll repeat, you are not only incapable of parsing other’s writing but obviously suffer from the same deficit when it comes to your own. Your WHOLE starting argument – from which you’ve have no choice but to backpedal – was to attempt to classify all of the Iraqi reistance as one monolithic, children murdering, terrorists group. Which is obviously a lie. TTFN ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/172 "2005-07-29T18:27:55Z")
Looking over all the posts I see the anti Iraq war side’s problem We have several different proposals while the GW supporters merely chant, “Stay the course, stay the course.” without, of course defining ‘the course’ except as a hypothetical democratic Iraq with liberty and justice for all. I favor getting out quickley even if the books have to be cooked on accomplishments and the state of Iraq’s readiness. Hell, the books were cooked to get us in weren’t they? Others are of the ‘we broke it we have to fix it’ school. I don’t think GW and his crew are capable of ‘fixing it.’ Maybe nobody is but in any case the mess will be handed on to his successor, military personnel and, of course, the future US taxpapers as the deficit goes merrily on. Still others favor a dignified withdrawl spaced over a couple or three years whether or not it is fixed. This position is sort of like mine only slower. And I suppose there is a group who want to have it end but don’t know how to do that. That group probably includes most of the antiwar group who really don’t know how to carry out a withdrawl. Of course the ‘Stay the course’ folks don’t know how to carry that out to a succesful outcome, but they are at least united. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/173 "2005-07-29T19:53:40Z")
> [@](#): > > As for killing children, where’s YOUR outrage when it’s [YOUR side doing the butchering](http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_iraqichild.jpg)? > > Warning: graphic link. The US military is not **deliberatly** targetting civilians. Some civilians, of course, are going to be injured or killed as a result of military action in Iraq. But the US forces have made a serious effort to avoid such casualties. The insurgents in Iraq, meanwhile, have been deliberately targetting civilians and children. Yet, you continue to cheer them on. > [@](#): > > Your WHOLE starting argument – from which you’ve have no choice but to backpedal – was to attempt to classify all of the Iraqi reistance as one monolithic, children murdering, terrorists group. This remains a straw man fantasty of yours. I never said or implied that the Iraqi resistance was a monolithic entity. You can keep repeating it, but it is plain to see by anyone reading this thread that you are just making this up. Language lesson: To say “The Iraqi insurgency is targetting civilians, including children.” is not the same thing as stating “Every member of the Iraqi insurgency in unison and without exception is targetting civilians, including children.” If the examples of civilians and children being victims of the insurgency where scattered or rare, then you might have some kind of point. But this is not the case. Clearly terrorizing civilians and murdering children is a widespread activity of the insurgents. My statement that the insurgents are deliberately killing children is true, despite your best efforts at defending any sympathizing with these murdering terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/174 "2005-07-29T19:58:23Z")
Ground troops will be reduced significantly over next few years. Sizable contingent will remain in Iraq for a very long time. Telling fact is nobody is even talking about rebuilding Iraqi Air Force and Navy. US will provide that for much longer. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/175 "2005-07-29T20:03:13Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The US military is not **deliberatly** targetting civilians. They deliberately targeted locations where they knew the likelyhood of killing innocent civilians, including children, was high. Acceptable collateral damage is coldly calculated to achieve the mission’s goals. To excuse it by saying they didn’t intentionally target children is just dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/176 "2005-07-29T22:40:03Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The US military is not **deliberatly** targetting civilians. Some civilians, of course, are going to be injured or killed as a result of military action in Iraq. But the US forces have made a serious effort to avoid such casualties. The insurgents in Iraq, meanwhile, have been deliberately targetting civilians and children. Yet, you continue to cheer them on. Once more with _feeling_. Stop fucking conflating the terrorists actions of a few with the _legitimate resistance movement_ in Iraq. This has already been explained to you by at least three posters other than myself: [clairobscur](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6412457&postcount=119) > [@](#): > > If I remember correctly, the poster you were responding to was criticizing the use of the word “terrorist” to characterize all of the Iraki resistance. Your statement that terrorists blowing up children can’t be compared to american patriots doesn’t adress the original criticism, but just did the same thing again, equating terrorist and people shelling the US troops with mortars, for instance. Are all people attacking the US troops terrorists blowing up children? If not, is an Iraki ambushing american soldiers different from an american ambushing british soldiers? [elucidator](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6415848&postcount=138) > [@](#): > > Your post suggests that you believe there is but one “insurgency” in Iraq. Have you any reason to believe that? If so, what is the nature of that insurgency? Is it religious in terms of motivation, or entirely secular? and [tagos](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6415947&postcount=141). > [@](#): > > Insurgents targeting and fighting foreign occupiers, particularly those torturing and as the news shows, killing innocent civilians and their own allies just in case there might be a threat (not to mention shelling and bombing cities), are directly comparable with yanks fighting the British or French resistance fighting the Germans and the Quisling govt. Are you saying Iraqi’s have no right to fight back against forces occupying their country and causing such death and destruction? On what basis have they lost that right? Now, each and every time this has been pointed out to you, you choose to come back with the same shit: “I can’t heeeear you!! Killing children! Blah blah and fuckin’ blaaah! USA #1!” Lovely pom-poms BTW. > [@](#): > > This remains a straw man fantasty of yours. I never said or implied that the Iraqi resistance was a monolithic entity. You can keep repeating it, but it is plain to see by anyone reading this thread that you are just making this up. And as I said before, you remain incapable of parsing your own fuckin’ posts – for I have just shown you that at least three other posters besides myself have called you out on the same fucking generalization. > [@](#): > > Clearly terrorizing civilians and murdering children is a widespread activity of the insurgents. My statement that the insurgents are deliberately killing children is true, despite your best efforts at defending any sympathizing with these murdering terrorists. While Shock & Awe and razing Fallujah were supposed to have a calming influence on the Iraqi populace. :rolleyes: Here’s another statement I’d like for you to deal with: The US is directly responsible for MORE civilian deaths than all the resistance groups combined. > [@](#): > > [The image presented in the US media’s daily propaganda is that “terrorists” or Iraqi insurgents are responsible for the bulk of civilian casualties in Iraq.](http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/iraq-j26.shtml) > > IBC proves that the opposite is the case. The US-led occupation forces have caused the largest number of the reported civilian deaths—9,270 or 37.3 percent of the total. > > IBC attributes 2,353 civilian deaths to the actions of anti-occupation forces—9.5 percent of the total. In another 1,258 cases, where civilians were killed during clashes between US-led forces and the resistance, it is unclear which party caused the deaths. > > Of the civilian fatalities directly attributed by IBC to the US-led forces, 6,882 occurred during the invasion of Iraq from March 20 to May 1, 2003.\*\* Air strikes have consistently been responsible for the greatest number of casualties. Between July and October 2004, for example, 55 US air strikes on cities such as Fallujah, Kut, Tal Afar and Samarra killed 547 civilians.\*\* These attacks received only the most cursory coverage in the American media. Put _that_ in your pipe and smoke it. PS-Read **Fear Itself’s** post vis-a-vis your collateral damage bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/177 "2005-07-30T01:39:04Z")
So, “is it time to pull out of Iraq” or not? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/178 "2005-07-30T01:42:49Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So, “is it time to pull out of Iraq” or not? I really don’t see why, since we’ve stuck it out this long, we can’t wait at least until the constitution is ratified and general elections are held. THEN start the chant to leave. But now??? Why now? I think its premature and its puzzling to me the level of rant by some about leaving RIGHT NOW!! I don’t get it when, IIRC, the constitution is supposed to be ratified next month and elections are supposed to be held before the end of the year. -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/179 "2005-07-30T02:00:01Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I really don’t see why, since we’ve stuck it out this long, we can’t wait at least until the constitution is ratified and general elections are held. THEN start the chant to leave. But now??? Why now? I think its premature and its puzzling to me the level of rant by some about leaving RIGHT NOW!! I don’t get it when, IIRC, the constitution is supposed to be ratified next month and elections are supposed to be held before the end of the year. How about for the very simple fact, stated over and over and over again, **that the majority of the Iraqis don’t want you there**? Something to do with it being their country and all. Surely you’d understand the sentiment if the situation was reversed. At least I hope you would. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058/180 "2005-07-30T02:17:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > why - - we can’t wait at least until the constitution is ratified and general elections are held. Or until it becomes apparent that’s not going to happen as we’d like. What with the deadline approaching, a refresher on the interim constitution is in order: > [@](#): > > Article 61. > > (A) The National Assembly shall write the draft of the permanent constitution by no later than 15 August 2005. > > (B) The draft permanent constitution shall be presented to the Iraqi people for approval in a general referendum to be held no later than 15 October 2005. In the period leading up to the referendum, the draft constitution shall be published and widely distributed to encourage a public debate about it among the people. > > © The general referendum will be successful and the draft constitution ratified if a majority of the voters in Iraq approve and if two-thirds of the voters in three or more governorates do not reject it. [Iraq Interim Constitution](http://news.findlaw.com/usatoday/docs/iraq/30804interimconst.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-pull-out-of-iraq-regardless/314058.md?page=10)