# Is it time to revive colonialism and The White Man's Burden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288 "2009-09-08T15:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/61 "2009-09-22T14:45:11Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Apologies for double posting but as there seems to be some sort of delay from **wmfellows** responding to my post, no doubt you’re preoccupied with some sort of serious business or something. > Or who knows catching up on your reading/googling? Well if the implication is supposed to be your hand waving posts wrong-footed me, I was off on vac with the family, mate, and had better things to do than rebut posts with more than a faint odour of tired old racism. > [@](#): > > But could you actually give me some examples of these African countries that are reforming and improving conditions? Certainly, Ghana, Cote d’Ivoire, Senegal seem to be good examples, even though CdI is still on the ropes with the semi-civil war. Mozambique is pulling up well beyond the dead-cat bounce after civil war, although it has a long way to come. One can plot GDP growth, the WB Doing Business > [@](#): > > Prefererbly somewhere you’ve actually visited yourself, you having been there and everything. Why? so I can engage in the same sort of whanking you have? The usual tired old racist lower class expat rant? > [@](#): > > Would it be Somalia or Ethiopia ? > No,no,of course not. > > Nigeria,Uganda or Kenya maybe? > > No can’t be them… > > Rwanda,Zimbabwe? > > How about Angola? > > Central African Republic… > > Chad? > > Democratic Republic of the Congo ? Actually Rwanda on the economic side has done not badly. Uganda bit of a mixed bag. Funny list you came up with. Somewhat revealing of your prejudices. > [@](#): > > Oh dear we’re not doing very well here are we? your cherry picking of what I would agree ex Uganda and Rwanda, of the amongst the worst performers says quite a lot. Doing well? Well, that I think is judged on facts. > [@](#): > > I must have my,as you put it "racist"head on not to know about all of these countries where things are getting so much better. Evidently. Sorry it hurts your feelings so. > [@](#): > > Hope its not too long before you can spare your valuable time to actually answer my questions. Perhaps you’re on another of your "visits"to Africa,who knows. My “visits”? My your feelings really must have been hurt. Sorry if the truth touches home. As evidenced by this fairly incoherent response to one of our friends presenting actual date, pity hate and prejudice have such > [@Lust4Life](#): > > Amazing ,the G.D.P. for these countries so consistantly rising according to the Googled figures, > (those figures must be one in the eye for all of those greedy,hate mongering Western Whities) I’m afraid this doesn’t even make the least bit of sense. Queer that bringing data to the table is considered a basis of insult… but I guess in some quarters. > [@](#): > > and yet the quality of lifestyle and personal safety of individuals living in these countries has not only not improved one iota,many people;dare I say it ?would say that their lives have gone down hill just that little bit more. A blanket assertion based on…? Of course, overall with GDP growth there are a couple of things to keep in mind: (i) Income distribution and (ii) GDP per capita. Most of Africa is running a race against demography, which is basically immiserating demographic growth. Nevertheless, the past decade’s sustained average growth at the very least arrested the slide in living standards and is a clear improvement over flatline to negative economic growth, There’s the other scenario of economic non-growth, not growing the 5% but rather shrinking the economy 1% and registering 5% population growth means ever deeper poverty. Sustained GDP growth at 5% real slowly moves things forward. > [@](#): > > I’m assuming that the figures are actually accurate though nations with notoriously corrupt governments are not above amending the figures here and there. The old “the Data fucked me argument so I pretend its non-existent.” There is much to be desired in the data reporting, but modern statistical analysis, including FDI and trade flows registered by other countries allows gross cheating to be caught and excluded. Even in the case of China one can suss out data issues. So merely hand waving about corruption is pretty pitiful. Yeah, there is corruption, but pretending every bit of GDP data is faked is absurd and illiterate. > [@](#): > > Democratic process is just so much fiction in most of Sub Saharan Africa,just as is a full belly,honest policing and freedom from corrupt govenment at all levels. Much of SSA, yes, but . > [@](#): > > But for the individual Africans actually living the life; their miserable life styles just drag on day after day and then they watch their children living the life. > But some bright spark whos never even been there flits around with the internet for a few minutes and tells the poor sods who are actually suffering that hey everythings O.K. because their G.D.P has apparently gone up. > > I dont know why you even post this as no doubt they already know this from having read the financial papers in their club while sipping champagne cocktails. > I’m surprised that they haven’t demanded that the West stop insulting them by sending them financial and food aid year after year. Quite a rant. Not a factual argument, but a wonderful rant for say IMHO or the BBQPit. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > As to the account I was told it while out there. So it was a bar conversation. As I observed, a sensationalised, no doubt beer drenched version of the actual facts. There are of course actual accounts of the corruption registered on several recent projects - although not quite as colourful as your sensationalised bar-rendition, insofar as staged dibursements and tendering processes make that rather more difficult. > [@](#): > > As to my description of the E.African highway being a virtual dirt road my opinion wasn’t based on a Google or three,or what someone told me in a pub,or what I read somewhere,or what someone said on T.V. but from actually SEEING the road and TRAVELLING on it not what someone with a hidden agenda has put on Wiki. Your version to data and substantiated fact has been already noted, never mind your queer reference to “hidden agendas” on wiki (although it is redolent of that certain kind of lower class expat labourer one often hear’s in certain kinds of hotel bars) that is but evidently my standards for “virtually a dirt road” and yours are different. > [@](#): > > As I also said in my previous post every couple of miles we came across overturned trucks with their crews sitting on the sides of the cabs waiting I imagine for a winch to right their vehicles. Thats how bad the road was. Well, you might add that the fine habit of loading up lorries to over twice their rated load, and with no sense of centre of gravity. Rather lends to all kinds of awful accidents, on both pitted roads and even well maintained ones. Of course, this is one more aspect of bad governance, as there are rules, but only applied on the basis of what gets the police a nice commission in cash. That and the fact so much transport is in the hands of semi-criminal operations. > [@](#): > > Also when I was there,can’t remember the year but it was the Kenyan election year before the last one(No doubt you can Google it if you’re curious,I cant be bothered as I was actually there,not reading about it ) it was just after the rains and one hell of a lot of the road network in the areas I travelled in had been washed away as they were DIRT roads. Well, I was last in Kenya this past May. I’m afraid my experience doesn’t match your rendition of your experience, although perhaps different places. > [@](#): > > I’m only surprised that you were unaware of the World Bank rip off,still in that country its sometimes healthier to follow the philosophy of the three wise monkeys. I did not say I was unaware of anything, I asked **you** to be **specific** about which [specific\*\* project, as I rather thought I recognized a beer fuelled exaggeration (spun with a wee pit of red-neck expat racism in the telling) of actual events. At no point have I claimed corruption does not exist, that bad Governance is not a problem, nor that business challenges are not profound in Africa. I simply object to adding onto this racism fuelled exaggeration. > [@](#): > > So not only was my statement NOT a gross exaggeration or as you bizzarley put it “Faintly Racist” it was an actual statement of the facts. Well, again, I invite you to be specific about which of the projects WB has in transport in the Mombasa transport region and substantiate your particular rendition, was given what I know each have suffered from corruption, but none of the facts quite match your rendition. > [@](#): > > But lets not have me spoil a debate with actual facts and first hand experiences if its going to piss on the fire eh? As you’ve merely engaged in a lot of shouted assertion, I find this line ironic. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/62 "2009-09-23T17:36:02Z")
I just read an [interesting article](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/31/think_again_africas_crisis?page=full) from when Hillary did her last tour some the continent. It’s good for a small positive spin on Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/63 "2009-09-23T19:00:57Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > The [Human Development Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index) is a most advanced, generalized, standard statistical instrument we have at measuring the quality of life of people who live around the world. Using [HDI Trends](http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/data/trends/) we will find out that the HDI trend line (which goes back 30 years) for SSA is lower then the rest of the world and has lower incline starting from the 1980’s (most contribute this to the HIV/AIDS epidemic in a lot of African countries), but it is still improving and growing. > I would trust this data as the most accurate assessment of these countries general economy and GDP; and if you look at their [“About Us”](http://www.africaneconomicoutlook.org/en/about-us/) page you will see from what sources they collected their data. > > There are any number of ways one can computer GDP/growth, [please chose one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDP#Lists_of_countries_by_their_GDP) that is acceptable to you and say why. > According [the Economist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index) the political nature of Africa is a heterogeneous/mixed bag where on their Democratic scale you will find African states that are: I have not included all of the quotes that **orcenio** had in their original post because it is too long for Dope format replies. Not for any sinister reasons. The link that YOU supplied express great reservations about HDI efficacy. Do you actually read the links yourself or just the first few lines? I would imagine that countries supplying economic data to even unbiased reviews would give Bullish accounts of their economies and this would be exacerbated by the countries themselves and companies investing in Africa when returning information to the more commercially related reports on investment in the Continent. No one wants the investors at home to “pull the plug” when they already are financially committed. Garbage In. Garbage Out. And once again using the Link that YOU supplied it shows only ONE country out of all the nations of Africa north and south only ONE has full democracy. Your link remember? Now we’ve got all of the paper hanging out of the way,lets talk about the REAL world as it applies to Africa. Do you honestly think that less Africans are permamently less likely(As opposed to a lull this year or last year whatever) to be killed by other Africans,whether civilian ,militia,police or military due to tribal,political or religous reasons in the future? Do you think that on a permament basis less Africans will be the victims of famine in the near future? Do you think that there are less Africans living in shanty towns,crapping into bags,without running water and other basic necessities then there were five years ago? Ten years… Twenty ? And will the numbers go down in the near future and STAY down? Do you think that the number of H.I.V. pos people in Africa is going down,will go down ever? Do you think that it looks likely that democracy will actually catch on in the majority of African nations? Do you think that corruption at all levels of society will ever go down/ As in if you want your kid to be taught in the Western funded, government school you must pay ME the teacher “Dash”(bribe money) even though I receive my wage from the government. Do you think that many African nations will stop their reliance on Western financial,food,plant,education aid in the next year? The next five years? The next twenty? Fifty… Hundred years? Googling is not even an approximation to real knowledge,real experience ,real education or real intelligence (In both meanings of the word). It is merely a tool for those who have already made up their mind in advance to cherry pick information,from no matter how doubtful the source,that backs up their undeclared political agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/64 "2009-09-23T19:53:48Z")
[quote=“wmfellows, post:61, topic:509288”] Well if the implication is supposed to be your hand waving posts wrong-footed me, I was off on vac with the family, mate, and had better things to do than rebut posts with more than a faint odour of tired old racism. Why? so I can engage in the same sort of whanking you have? The usual tired old racist lower class expat rant? Somewhat revealing of your prejudices. [QUOTE/] And so on and so on and on and on and on… Of course you were on “vacation”. Who would doubt it for one moment? Are we back now or are you nipping off for another couple of days for another holiday and then respond to this post? Personally I always enjoy actual vacations longer then a couple of days,but each to their own. Mind you I have short breaks the same length as your recent vacation,but there you go. As to lower class,yes I’m working class,sorry if we’re not actually allowed an opinion as to people who seem to claiming to be upper class,perhaps I should doff my cap and withdraw any posts that I’ve made. But though quite well travelled globally I’m not actually an ex pat of any variety. As to the racist slur I was and still am a very vocal adherent of President Obama,when he was seeking election and now that he’s president. Which you can check on these and other MBs. When I last looked he was Black and his father was a Kenyan. I have also made it known on many occassions my total and utter repulsion of racists,whatever their background. Which on these and other MBs you can also check. So you can take your nasty little allegations and put them where the sun doesn’t shine. Good to see that you haven’t felt it necessary to include so many "fuckings"as you seemed to in your earlier posts. Hope you’re not getting any withdrawal symptons. To be frank I cannot take seriously anyone who claims to have been to Kenya a couple of times,let alone any other parts of Africa,but who appears to be totally unaware of the major network of dirt roads there (The local government calls them “Earth roads”) and finds the term slightly racist for gods sake! The locals don’t seem to find the term racist,bearing in mind that they themselves use it. I’m sorry but your credibility is so low if you said that it was raining outside ;I.d go and see for myself. You’re like a self parody. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/65 "2009-09-24T09:42:59Z")
I don’t see anything above in your two posts but ad hominem and ad hoc assertions and hand waving trying to cast doubt on actual data that wrong foot your story. As such, I don’t see a point in engaging in a conversation. This is, after all, GD, not IMHO or the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/66 "2009-09-25T14:10:28Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I have not included all of the quotes that **orcenio** had in their original post because it is too long for Dope format replies. > Not for any sinister reasons. > > The link that YOU supplied express great reservations about HDI efficacy. > > Do you actually read the links yourself or just the first few lines? > **I would imagine** that countries supplying economic data to even unbiased reviews would give Bullish accounts of their economies and this would be exacerbated by the countries themselves and companies investing in Africa when returning information to the more commercially related reports on investment in the Continent. > > No one wants the investors at home to “pull the plug” when they already are financially committed. > Garbage In. > Garbage Out. (bolding/underlining mine) Frankly, I don’t care about what you imagine. Without a single citation it’s irrelevant. > [@](#): > > And once again using the Link that YOU supplied it shows only ONE country out of all the nations of Africa north and south only ONE has full democracy. > > Your link remember? No, that is from **my quote** of my link. [South Africa, Namibia, Lesotho and Benin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index) are not far off from being considered good democratic countries (South Africa only statistically missed that mark). Non-authoritarian governments are new to Africa and open democracy is never “inevitable” for any country, but in the last 20 years most African countries have been making steps towards more political freedom and openness. > [@](#): > > Now we’ve got all of the paper hanging out of the way,lets talk about the REAL world as it applies to Africa. You got nothing “out of the way.” You merely ignored data and citations. > [@](#): > > Do you honestly think that less Africans are permamently less likely(As opposed to a lull this year or last year whatever) to be killed by other Africans,whether civilian ,militia,police or military due to tribal,political or religous reasons in the future? Africa is a heterogeneous region. It is the world’s second-largest and second most-populous continent with ~ 1 billion people, 53 countries and 2000 languages. Name an old/emerging geo-political/ethnic/religious/class conflict or dispute and then we shall discuss how/when/if it will come a resolution. Vague/general statements continue to expose your ignorance. > [@](#): > > Do you think that on a permament basis less Africans will be the victims of famine in the near future? Right now, you are making a claim (that **more/equal** number of “Africans will be the victims of famine in the near future”). You’re in Great Debates. If you have a claim the onus is on you to provide citations to defend it. > [@](#): > > Do you think that there are less Africans living in shanty towns,crapping into bags,without running water and other basic necessities then there were five years ago? > Ten years… > Twenty ? Right now, you are making a claim. You’re in Great Debates. If you have a claim the onus is on you to provide citations to defend it. However I will choose to answer this. “Shanty towns” will probably grow as [urbanization in Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_Africa) continues to drive people from the rural areas into the cities, economical development will then enable the cities to absorb them. As for “crapping into bags,without running water and other basic necessities” You will find that in the last 15 years there has been massive improvement in the percentage of Africans using an [improved water source](http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/61.html) and [improved sanitation](http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/59.html). > [@](#): > > And will the numbers go down in the near future and STAY down? Yes. > [@](#): > > Do you think that the number of H.I.V. pos people in Africa is going down,will go down ever? [Yes.](http://www.unaids.org/en/CountryResponses/Regions/SubSaharanAfrica.asp) [[QUOTE=unaids.org](http://QUOTE=unaids.org)] Most epidemics in sub-Saharan Africa appear to have stabilized, although often at very high levels, particularly in southern Africa. Additionally, in a growing number of countries, adult HIV prevalence appears to be falling. For the region as a whole, women are disproportionately affected in comparison with men, with especially stark differences between the sexes in HIV prevalence among young people. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Do you think that it looks likely that democracy will actually catch on in the majority of African nations? Yes. > [@](#): > > Do you think that corruption at all levels of society will ever go down/ Yes. > [@](#): > > Do you think that many African nations will stop their reliance on Western financial,food,plant,education aid in the next year? > > The next five years? > > The next twenty? > > Fifty… > > Hundred years? Yes. > [@](#): > > Googling is not even an approximation to real knowledge,real experience ,real education or real intelligence (In both meanings of the word). > > It is merely a tool for those who have already made up their mind in advance to cherry pick information,from no matter how doubtful the source,that backs up their undeclared political agenda. You have shown nothing in way of evidence/citations to back your claims nor have you replied to **any** of my previous points. Just as \*\*wmfellows \*\*said: > [@](#): > > I don’t see anything above in your two posts but ad hominem and ad hoc assertions and hand waving trying to cast doubt on actual data that wrong foot your story. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/67 "2009-09-26T13:57:24Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > (bolding/underlining mine) Frankly, I don’t care about what you imagine. Without a single citation it’s irrelevant.No, that is from **my quote** of my link. > > [South Africa, Namibia, Lesotho and Benin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index) are not far off from being considered good democratic countries (South Africa only statistically missed that mark). Non-authoritarian governments are new to Africa and open democracy is never “inevitable” for any country, but in the last 20 years most African countries have been making steps towards more political freedom and openness. You got nothing “out of the way.” You merely ignored data and citations.Africa is a heterogeneous region. It is the world’s second-largest and second most-populous continent with ~ 1 billion people, 53 countries and 2000 languages. Name an old/emerging geo-political/ethnic/religious/class conflict or dispute and then we shall discuss how/when/if it will come a resolution. Vague/general statements continue to expose your ignorance.Right now, you are making a claim (that **more/equal** number of “Africans will be the victims of famine in the near future”). You’re in Great Debates. If you have a claim the onus is on you to provide citations to defend it.Right now, you are making a claim. You’re in Great Debates. If you have a claim the onus is on you to provide citations to defend it. > > However I will choose to answer this. “Shanty towns” will probably grow as [urbanization in Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_Africa) continues to drive people from the rural areas into the cities, economical development will then enable the cities to absorb them. As for “crapping into bags,without running water and other basic necessities” You will find that in the last 15 years there has been massive improvement in the percentage of Africans using an [improved water source](http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/61.html) and [improved sanitation](http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/59.html). Yes.[Yes.](http://www.unaids.org/en/CountryResponses/Regions/SubSaharanAfrica.asp)Yes.Yes.Yes.You have shown nothing in way of evidence/citations to back your claims nor have you replied to **any** of my previous points. Just as \*\*wmfellows \*\*said: You seem to have made up your mind already about the state of Africa and have been desperately trying (And miserably failing)to cherry pick links that back up what you WANT to believe. I have ,in good faith taken YOUR links remember,to be truthful and accurate and even then they serve only to contradict your own wishful thinking. You have singulary failed to find even one link that does actually agree with your point of view. I must confess to being completely mystified as to why you posted those links in the first place as they served only to confirm what a basket case many if not most African nations actually are; and look like remaining that way. As I have previously said,I can only conclude that you don’t actually read your own links beyond the first couple of lines or if you do,which I find very,very diffficult to believe you just don’t understand their content. Your beliefs seem to have a more emotional basis,or perhaps some sort of political agenda then any factual rationale’. I am quite aware that when discussing Africa with the many Black racists in this world (And I do not necessarily include you in that group)it is very much like trying to get White Supremicists to admit to the Holocaust or Creationists to give a scientific defence to their disbelief in evolution. One last thing,the internet is not the Be All and End All of human knowledge. Anyone can post items in Wiki and anyone can amend them. This results in Wiki being a tainted chalice. Do you know personally which items have been tampered with ? Do you know which responsible persons or organisations have been misquoted whether as a hoax or as a political act? Yes of course you do, on subjects that you have first hand experience of or that you have learned from regular education or reading. But if you actually already know the subject then you’re not going to Google that subject for information purposes. If you really think that Googling can make up for a lack of education or experience on a serious topic then your life is doomed to be one of great disappointment. I shouldn’t bother attempting to engage in anymore debate with me personally on the subject as for me its like trying to convince a Christian fundamentalist that the Bible is not word perfectly true. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/68 "2009-09-26T14:37:46Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I don’t see anything above in your two posts but ad hominem and ad hoc assertions and hand waving trying to cast doubt on actual data that wrong foot your story. As such, I don’t see a point in engaging in a conversation. This is, after all, GD, not IMHO or the Pit. Yes you’re right this isn’t the Pit. You don’t pick fights with complete strangers for no apparent reason. You don’t throw around things like “Bollocks,Sven hasn’t got a bloody clue about what shes writing about” Ironic that seeing as she’s actually lived and worked in Africa which seems pretty doubtful in your case. And other little gems like “19 Fucking 76” "Froggies,assholes. "(Strange that you use the American spelling where throughout your posts you use Brit slang,most of the time correctly) And of course your intelligent response to one poster “I call bollocks on your story”. Also insinuations of racism and using "Lower classes"as an an attempted insult against yours truly. (A term that none Brits would think an actual British insult from their experiences of movies and t.v. but in reality is only found in Victorian novels. You’d get some very strange looks if you used it in todays U.K. even if the user was an Earl) Another little tip I have never,ever IME heard a Brit say that they’ve been “on vacation”,though we know what Americans mean when they say it. You might just aswell start putting "Sidewalks"and "elevators into the conversation and you most definitely WOULD get laughed at. I find it more then a little hypocritical that the perpetrator of the above behaviour starts whining when they receive back just a little of what they were so gleefully dishing out themselves earlier. So yes I think that you’re very wise to decide to put a halt to your “conversation”. Bullying and abuse have never been very effective tactics on these boards as you yourself should have learned long ago. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/69 "2009-09-26T14:57:06Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > As long as we are at this, let me take another crack at the offensive Left stereotype of private enterprise in Africa. Few things, in my opinion have done more damage to African than the kind of weak and superficial analysis shown earlier. > > Let’s take concessionary construction projects in Africa. I have had the displeasure of working on exactly that. > > So, our Sven claims the Evil French were exploiting the Camerounians. Maybe. > > But here is how such a project really works. > > First, the tender. God knows if it’s a clean bid or if your local partner – one ALWAYS has a local partner, preferably close to the Head Kleptocrat, otherwise no matter how good your firm quals are, you’ve got no chance – gave a bit of “dash” to get your dossier read. > > Okay you win. Well, there’s no doubt that the pricing is going to be played with by the minor kleptocrats in the Ministry of Fucking People Over (sorry Construction). > > So, having won, let’s ignore if a bit of “dash” was involved – assume the minimum. > > Then you have to bring in your equipment, as generally good quality stuff is not to be had at a reasonable price locally (sometimes it is, but rarely in quantity, and most often shit maintained). There you run into all kinds of interesting problems. > > Customs officials at the Port find 1000 reasons why this and that paper is not right, oh and your customs exemption from the Chief Kleptocrat’s office is not really covering this or that… in the end it’s all a scam to get you to pay them off or they just block and block until you have to pay or go up over the heads (and likely pay a bigger “facilitation fee”) to get what was supposed to be on contract spec for non-duty or reduced duty import into the godforsaken country. > > Or even if you’re full duty, them finding an excuse to double charge (such as claiming spare parts are for resale and thus dutied up twice, thus you have to send your chief engineer down to port and have him sit down with the fat beer sucking scumbag who thought up this little game and count the spare parts to ensure they meet guidelines, wasting a week or three). > > And the same assholes who are shaking you down on every damn thing that fucking moves go and write letters in the shit-for-brains press about how Whitey is ripping the Country off, the hypocritical scum that they are. > > More fun occurs when you have to import materials, cement or whatnot, and you run into all kinds of imaginary permits and other excuses to shake you down, from shipside all the way to the trucks. Let’s ignore the outright theft of some of your cement or construction steel. > > So your local partner, bless his heart – how the fuck he manages to stay above water given the parasites around him escapes me – finds a way to bring in the materials via the black market. Still payoffs, but you save 50% on cost. Of course you still get the shakedowns for your equipment and material every 10km or so with those idiotic police and gendarmie checkpoints on the roads, each time a bit of cash and lost hours, doubling or tripling your transport time and costs, idling works and expensive engineers. > > Yeah, but it’s the concession’s fault that things are getting done, exploiting the Africans… > > Corruption all around, but doing things straight up sends you into a Kafkian hell as fat bellied, calabashes of beer swilling parasites suck you dry, and then go sell empty headed Leftist activists stories about the foreigners exploiting the country. > > As this is actual live experience, forgive me if I read when I read utter nonsense about foreign concessions holding Africa down, AND that the Western business community LIKE and WANTS such conditions, I want to spit. > > All the more so as the same kind of behaviour also imposes a death grip on domestic private enterprise (unless properly connected with the Chief Kleptocrat, then you get a free pass on the body of absurd regulations copied from EU, UK or France and applied with catastrophic cretinism and cupidity), killing off jobs and growth. So of course there’s not much local production. > > That kind of rubbish thinking that pretends it is the West that is exploiting Africa and keeping it down is what keeps Africa down, via empty and mealy mouthed excuse making. And this is different from New Jersey how? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/70 "2009-09-26T15:33:42Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > You seem to have made up your mind already about the state of Africa and have been desperately trying (And miserably failing)to cherry pick links that back up what you WANT to believe. > I have ,in good faith taken YOUR links remember,to be truthful and accurate and even then they serve only to contradict your own wishful thinking. > You have singulary failed to find even one link that does actually agree with your point of view. You have read nothing. > [@](#): > > I must confess to being completely mystified as to why you posted those links in the first place as they served only to confirm what a basket case many if not most African nations actually are; and look like remaining that way. Of course you are confused, as you haven’t read anything. > [@](#): > > As I have previously said,I can only conclude that you don’t actually read your own links beyond the first couple of lines or if you do,which I find very,very diffficult to believe you just don’t understand their content. > > Your beliefs seem to have a more emotional basis,or perhaps some sort of political agenda then any factual rationale’. Perhaps you can lay out my political agenda? It does require a bit of reading… > [@](#): > > I am quite aware that when discussing Africa with the many Black racists in this world (And I do not necessarily include you in that group)it is very much like trying to get White Supremicists to admit to the Holocaust or Creationists to give a scientific defence to their disbelief in evolution. Ramblings… > [@](#): > > One last thing,the internet is not the Be All and End All of human knowledge. > Anyone can post items in Wiki and anyone can amend them. > This results in Wiki being a tainted chalice. > Do you know personally which items have been tampered with ? > Do you know which responsible persons or organisations have been misquoted whether as a hoax or as a political act? …more ramblings… > [@](#): > > Yes of course you do, on subjects that you have first hand experience of or that you have learned from regular education or reading. > But if you actually already know the subject then you’re not going to Google that subject for information purposes. …more ramblings… > [@](#): > > If you really think that Googling can make up for a lack of education or experience on a serious topic then your life is doomed to be one of great disappointment. …more ramblings… > [@](#): > > I shouldn’t bother attempting to engage in anymore debate with me personally on the subject as for me its like trying to convince a Christian fundamentalist that the Bible is not word perfectly true. …and more ramblings. Hmmmm not one argument, not one citation. You won’t make it very far in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/71 "2009-09-26T16:27:57Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You have read nothing. > > Of course you are confused, as you haven’t read anything. > > Perhaps you can lay out my political agenda? It does require a bit of reading… > > Ramblings… > > …more ramblings… > > …more ramblings… > > …more ramblings… > > …and more ramblings. Hmmmm not one argument, not one citation. You won’t make it very far in Great Debates. It seems that you can’t even read posts let alone your own links so I’ll just wish you a fond farewell,bye bye. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/72 "2009-09-26T16:55:01Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > It seems that you can’t even read posts let alone your own links so I’ll just wish you a fond farewell,bye bye. tah-tah ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/73 "2009-10-02T14:53:32Z")
For those confused about the meaning of White Man’s Burden, I commend this Wiki article[White Man’s Burden by Rudyard Kipling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_man%27s_burden) ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288/74 "2009-10-09T14:54:03Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > It was more like a contry would go into a “region” and then artifically create borders that were based more on defending it militarily than ethnic and language similarities of the population. Then they would remove the natural resources, create an economy that allowed the conquerors to be top dog, try and wipeout native religions, and often commit genocode on the locals. > > So yeah, I think it’s time to do that again. Can a ciilized country like Canada please do it the the US. No, the American method is better. Just wipe out the natives and take over. psik [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-revive-colonialism-and-the-white-mans-burden/509288.md?page=3)