# Is it time to start an agressive, "atheist pride" movement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954 "2008-12-19T19:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/41 "2008-12-19T21:33:08Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I thought the Darwin fish was the atheist symbol? The Pope (or at least the former one) supports evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/42 "2008-12-19T21:38:08Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I vote no. Atheism is something one chooses, not something one is born with and unable to change. Militant atheists are every bit as obnoxious as the bible thumpers in my book. Everyone is born an Atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/43 "2008-12-19T21:48:28Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I thought the Darwin fish was the atheist symbol? Can’t say I really like the one **Der Trihs** linked. That thing looks like something I oughta wear with Spock ears. When I was searching for it ( because I recalled that it was what the military used ), I noticed someone else comment that it looked like the logo for a nuclear power plant. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/44 "2008-12-19T21:57:28Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I started wearing a Cross to work after being a part of one too many conversations about how stupid Christians were, how we are all anti-gay, and how we all constantly walk around condemning people. I slipped on a small Cross, and a few people mentioned that they had no idea that I was a Christian - and how different I was from what they expected. They only knew of hard core Bible thumping proselytizers. [Something Positive](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp10192006.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/45 "2008-12-19T21:59:35Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > But what exactly are atheist’s moving against? Are atheists denied jobs, housing loans, the choice of who they want to marry? Are they made to pray to gods they dont believe in? I know public officials like to spout their religion, but has any atheist professed their “belief” and been shown to lose an election because of that? > > What are atheists suffering against that any movement needs to happen? Did I miss the atheist internment camp story? Look at the Youtube CNN report. Look at the polls that show that the majority of Americans would not vote for an atheist. Made to pray? Well, any atheist who wishes to use American money has to walk around with a piece of paper that declares that “We” (presumably all good Americans) trust in God. Sure it is a small point. So why is it there? Why does a purely secular piece of currency meant to be used by all Americans have to proclaim support of theism? It was added only in the 1950s during the Cold War, when anyone who protested would have been called “comrade”. How hard would it be to remove it from the next printing of US currency? But theists will not allow that, will theY? They will dig in their heels and insist that in a republic that separates church and state, in which the state is not supposed to favour any religious opinion over another, they must be allowed to keep their symbolic foot on the neck of atheists, if only to put them in their place. How would THEISTS like it if currency contained the words “There is no God?” But atheists are NOT asking for that, are they? They are just asking that the state be neutral in all matters of religious belief. Is that so much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/46 "2008-12-19T21:59:38Z")
What do you mean ‘start’ one? I thought that’s what Dawkins and PZ Myers and Daniel Dennett were all doing. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/47 "2008-12-19T21:59:55Z")
I live in the Netherlands, and as others have mentioned in this thread, the default assumption in most parts of the country is that you are an atheist (except maybe if you look north-African). We still have quite a lot of believers here (mostly protestants of all kinds, catholics & muslims - in total probably more than hard atheists or even agnostics), but strong **vocal** adherence to religions is fairly rare. I just can’t understand that in the US, with its strong insistence of freedom of speech - which was IFAIK born out of frustration with state-sanctioned/supported religions - it’s considered so exceptional to “come out” as an atheist, and why it’s considered positively damaging to do so if you’re an elected politician. Over here, the largest political party is an explicitly christian one (keep in mind we’ve got a lot more than two “serious” parties), but I have no clue about the faith of most of politicians who are not in the christian parties. Anyway, nobody would bat an eye if, say, [Wouter Bos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wouter_Bos) stated he was a strong atheist - he may have done so, I don’t know. It could come up in any kind of personal interview, but most people except maybe the fundamentalists would regard it as a personal choice, and not in any way indicative negatively or positively of his morals. I would certainly be surprised if he avoided answering a straight general question about his religious beliefs (as in “are you religious?”). As far as I can see, the biggest problem in the US is that many people regard atheists as automatically morally deficient. What would be needed to change that perception is for everyday atheists to be explicit about their lack of belief. There’s no need to be a dick about it, but there’s absolutely no reason to hide your religious positions when it comes up. So maybe, yes - it is time to be more up front about being an atheist. I don’t think being loud and “aggressive” is going to be helpful, but by all means let people know that atheists exist and are usually decent people (as most people are). ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/48 "2008-12-19T22:02:32Z")
On the one hand, all that atheists necessarily have in common is that they don’t believe in the same gods. On the other hand, all the things I vaguely associate with atheists don’t require atheism. What sort of uniquely atheists things will we be celebrating at these atheist pride events? I really have no interest in talking about gods I don’t believe in, or the lack of reasons I have for believe in them. Whatever things we individually _do_ believe are not necessarily universally (or even widely) shared. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/49 "2008-12-19T22:03:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What do you mean ‘start’ one? I thought that’s what Dawkins and PZ Myers and Daniel Dennett were all doing. I don’t think that’s what the OP meant. Dawkins especially is explicitly anti-theistic. That’s not at all the same as being a vocal atheist. Strongly asserting your non-belief is not the same as claiming that religion is damaging to society. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/50 "2008-12-19T22:05:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When I was searching for it ( because I recalled that it was what the military used ), I noticed someone else comment that it looked like the logo for a nuclear power plant. It does, kind of! I’m kind of amused to see that the symbol I would most prefer is not on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/51 "2008-12-19T22:16:15Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I don’t think that’s what the OP meant. Dawkins especially is explicitly anti-theistic. That’s not at all the same as being a vocal atheist. Strongly asserting your non-belief is not the same as claiming that religion is damaging to society. Thanks, Parentheses, (or may I call you Superfie?:D) for getting this back on track. My use of the word “aggressive” was not meant to imply “obnoxious”. To that earlier poster, note I did not mention any specific “pride” events, btw. On the other hand, gay people often have nothing more than their sexuality in common (I know gays who have NOTHING in common with me). And I am sure you could find millions of black people who have nothing in common with another given black person except for skin colour. But a group that has nothing more in common than the fact that they are put down, mistreated and misunderstood by society can react with letters, emails, postings on the net, letters to the editor, calls to municipal officials, etc. when one of theier number os victimized. Once again, I invite you to look at that family featured here [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjIYvXpvLM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjIYvXpvLM) Don’t they look like they could stand a bit of moral support? How about a letter or two to a school board in the “heartland” that allows the intimidation of an atheist student? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/52 "2008-12-19T22:24:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Militant atheists are every bit as obnoxious as the bible thumpers in my book. Do you mean on the SDMB or in society as a whole? ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/53 "2008-12-19T22:25:22Z")
> [@](#): > > How would THEISTS like it if currency contained the words “There is no God?” But atheists are NOT asking for that, are they? They are just asking that the state be neutral in all matters of religious belief. Is that so much to ask? It’s not to much ask, at least I dont think so, but that wasn’t what your OP was about. You want being an atheist accepted like being gay is becomming to be accepted (at least more than it was 30yrs ago). I just dont equate the two the same. And I did watch the CNN video… so? They found 2 people who protested bible time in school, and were harassed for it. Well duh. If I was a muslim and wanted time to study allah in my kids school I would be harassed too. Thats not about belief or any lack of, but of not having the right belief. And they found 2 people who think they may have been asked to leave an apartment due to being an atheists, but even they dont have any proof except for the fact it occured “some” weeks after they mentioned it to a friend. Not really seeing the oppression of the masses here. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/54 "2008-12-19T22:36:48Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > It’s not to much ask, at least I dont think so, but that wasn’t what your OP was about. You want being an atheist accepted like being gay is becomming to be accepted (at least more than it was 30yrs ago). I just dont equate the two the same. Why not? > [@](#): > > And I did watch the CNN video… so? They found 2 people who protested bible time in school, and were harassed for it. Well duh. If I was a muslim and wanted time to study allah in my kids school I would be harassed too. Thats not about belief or any lack of, but of not having the right belief. In the video the term is “class time devoted to bible studies”. And yes I would think it’s right to object to that. > [@](#): > > Not really seeing the oppression of the masses here. Well atheists are hardly a mass in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/55 "2008-12-19T22:49:28Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Well atheists are hardly a mass in the US. The OP is a _Canadian_ poster. Which makes the thread sort of odd, as Atheism isn’t really under stress here in Canada - honestly (at least anecdotally) the majority of people could not care less - at least in the provinces I’m most used to, Ontario and Quebec. An “Atheist Pride” movement here would just seem sort of pointless, lacking any real oppression or opposition to work against. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/56 "2008-12-19T23:05:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The OP is a _Canadian_ poster. > > Which makes the thread sort of odd, as Atheism isn’t really under stress here in Canada - honestly (at least anecdotally) the majority of people could not care less - at least in the provinces I’m most used to, Ontario and Quebec. An “Atheist Pride” movement here would just seem sort of pointless, lacking any real oppression or opposition to work against. As I recall, a few years ago a Member of Parliament in Canada presented a petition signed by thousands of humanists and others asking that the reference to God be removed from the preamble to the Canadian Constitution. He was booed down. Once again, the theists either could not or would not see the point. I sometimes ask myself if they are willfully dense or just naturally so. One of their stupid arguments was that removing the reference to God would favour atheism. Of course it would not! We were not asking that the preamble state “There is no God”. That would be completely unfair to those who believe in God. We were just asking that that the Constitution of a country that assures freedom of religious opinion for all remain **NEUTRAL** and **SILENT** in matters of religious belief, leaving everyone free to believe as they wish. Would someone please, please explain to me why theists consistently refuse to understand that simple point? They do not normally appear to be stupid in other matters of reasoning. The other argument is that the majority believe in God. Fine. But the majority of Canada is also Christian. So why don’t we change the preamble to say: “God and his only begotten son Jesus Christ”? Why not? Because that would offend Jews and Muslims? Then would someone please, please tell me why it is not all right to offend Jews and Muslims by expressing the majority religious view and telling these other religions to fuck off, but it is perfectly all right to tell several million Canadian atheists the same thing? Or is it because Jews and Muslims have lobby groups who would react swiftly and efficiently to block such a proposal? Do you see now why I am calling for a more agressive, organized atheist movement? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/57 "2008-12-19T23:12:30Z")
Meh. I’d rather contribute to civil-liberty organizations and volunteer for the political campaigns of opponents of pols who like to blur the religion/government line. I don’t care enough about what people believe privately to go out of my way to be vocal about it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/58 "2008-12-19T23:17:21Z")
It’s a bad idea, I think. For one thing, the word “aggressive” tied to any kind of civil movement is not exactly a ring of impressiveness. I’d say, at this point, that in general an “atheist pride” movement would cement the beliefs of some that atheists are out to rob and ransack all overt religiosity from society. When the fear is of aggressive, proactive forays then a movement of this sort is entirely the wrong thing to do; even more so that, as a general “atheist causes” movement, it would allow for more general criticisms and motivations to be ascribed to it. Plus, a movement along those lines I think would highlight seperativeness; athiests as a single group that can be pointed to, when what I think is needed is more for some method of showing that atheists are, for the most part, just like everyone else. That what we want out of life isn’t really that different. People shouldn’t, for example, see a badge supporting this movement, and judge the actions of the wearer from then on with a possibly jaundiced eye, but rather simply perhaps discover who is an atheist after they already have got to know them. We just need to generally be visible atheists, hopefully doing good work and being normal people. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/59 "2008-12-19T23:36:02Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [Something Positive](http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp10192006.shtml) THANK YOU! I was looking for that exact strip when I wrote my post, but I didn’t go back far enough. That strip hit me very hard, because I WILL be Davan’s dad in a few years (not quite old enough yet). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/60 "2008-12-19T23:37:01Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I actually don’t like that point, because I’ve heard the second part of it recently for the first time. “But most people grow out of it.” Annoys the hell out of me… I can’t say I’ve ever heard the second part, but religion isn’t the cultural force it seems to be in the States. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954.md?page=4)