# Is it time to start an agressive, "atheist pride" movement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954 "2008-12-19T19:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/141 "2008-12-22T16:15:48Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > My only point is that you can’t prove God exists and you can’t prove God doesn’t existence; therefore, asserting either as fact is equally dogmatic. I’m still left with the impression that you don’t feel this way about, for example, unicorns or leprechauns. Is a person who asserts there’s no such thing as a leprechaun just as dogmatic as someone who asserts there is such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/142 "2008-12-22T16:48:02Z")
The argument that you can’t prove God doesn’t exist therefore Atheism is invalid irritates me because it is pedantic. You can’t prove that I am unique among humans in that my insides are 95% custard without opening me up. But I it is just as valid for me to _say_ my insides are not made of custard as it is for me to say There is no God. Because I find both (the existence of God, the localized existence of 95% custard in my body) equally unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/143 "2008-12-22T17:14:35Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I vote no. Atheism is something one chooses, not something one is born with and unable to change. Militant atheists are every bit as obnoxious as the bible thumpers in my book. I don’t know. I don’t think I could believe in God even if I tried really really hard. Yet I agree with the second bit for some reason. Maybe it’s that Athiests are so sick of proselytizing in any form they don’t even want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/144 "2008-12-22T19:28:55Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > My only point is that you can’t prove God exists and you can’t prove God doesn’t existence; therefore, asserting either as fact is equally dogmatic. No, it doesn’t quite work this way. The way you’ve stated things it looks like they’re both equally likely, when that’s clearly not true. We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that god, in pretty much every form believed in so far, actually exists. Nothing. After thousands of years and thousands of religions we have _nothing_. But when rationally examined, we can see logical problems with god(s) existence. Problems with definitions (omnipotence/omniscience vs omnibenevolence), problems with events attributed to them (a church official approved the miracle, it must be real!), problems with ‘sightings’ (I had a vision, and I just know it was god, so it must be), etc. So, when you look at the situation, you have a completely unsubstantiated claim on one side, and some serious roadblocks on the other. Proof of god’s nonexistence is not necessary. The default assumption of something as amazing as god is nonexistence, with acceptance of existence coming only after adequate evidence has been presented. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/145 "2008-12-23T02:55:10Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > May I place a sign on your frong lawn that says “There is no God”, or are you going to censor me? I’d censor you. (Or, to be exact, I’d have no say in the matter, but I believe my landlady would censor you.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/146 "2008-12-23T03:41:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’d censor you. (Or, to be exact, I’d have no say in the matter, but I believe my landlady would censor you.) Well, what property do you own, if any, that could carry a sign? Got a bumper that could use a stickering? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/147 "2008-12-23T03:45:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’d censor you. (Or, to be exact, I’d have no say in the matter, but I believe my landlady would censor you.) Help! Help! I’m being repressed! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/148 "2008-12-23T03:47:19Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Help! Help! I’m being repressed! There’s some lovely filth over here. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/149 "2008-12-23T03:50:26Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > The argument that you can’t prove God doesn’t exist therefore Atheism is invalid irritates me because it is pedantic. Hmmmmmmm I’m not sure I’ve _ever_ heard anyone make that argument and I’ve been here since 2005. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/150 "2008-12-23T03:51:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m still left with the impression that you don’t feel this way about, for example, unicorns or leprechauns. Is a person who asserts there’s no such thing as a leprechaun just as dogmatic as someone who asserts there is such a thing? Not if they eat Lucky Charms. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/151 "2008-12-23T04:29:03Z")
Speaking of which, do you know what the original colours of Lucky Charms were? [One of my proudest moments](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6447101&postcount=4) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/152 "2008-12-23T04:38:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Speaking of which, do you know what the original colours of Lucky Charms were? > > [One of my proudest moments](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6447101&postcount=4) LOL I am humbled. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/153 "2008-12-23T04:47:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree that overall tone matters. In another thread you also mentioned Sam Harris. > Could you give an example or two of Sam resorting to childish insults? I can imagine the kind of hate mail he has gotten. “Christians have a long tradition of torturing scholars to the point of madness for merely speculating about the nature of the stars.” (from _The End of Faith_) Falsely accusing people of torture sure seems like an insult to me. > [@](#): > > I think there comes a time where rejecting all points being made because of a few snarky comments appears to be just a dodge to avoid a valid argument. {even if that’s not the intent} I reject Dawkins arguments because they are unsound, and have already started several threads explaining why. The fact that he behaves in such a sophmoric, anti-intellectual way just makes it all the more baffling to me that anyone would take him seriously. He is the bestselling promoter of atheism as far as I know. Can’t you all do any better? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/154 "2008-12-23T05:02:19Z")
You only have to agree on a definition of atheism if you are going to organize. If not ,a personal definition will do fine. We not have to agree on a leader, a place to gather or how to get more money. We can just go our own way. I don’t get angry at religious displays. I feel sorry for people who have a need to openly flaunt their acceptance of a religious belief system, like it is a good thing. I see little to recommend it. How much trouble do religions have to cause before its followers say that this is wrong, too dangerous to the rest of the world , too intolerant to non believers and a general waste of time and money. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/155 "2008-12-23T05:49:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You only have to agree on a definition of atheism if you are going to organize. Once we do, though, we’ll inevitably divide into warring factions. I myself am sure to turn on those who do not eat off their tummies. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/156 "2008-12-23T06:57:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree there’s a difference but consider these statements. > > I believe God does not exist because there is no evidence that such a being does exist. > > I believe God exists even though there is no evidence that such a being exists. > > Is one statement more dogmatic than the other? Fair enough and point taken. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/157 "2008-12-23T07:04:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’ve debated members of many different religions, both online and in real life. That would include other Christians, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, and Hindus. All of them have been polite to me. Very polite, unfailing even when the debates got heated. I can think of no instance where any of them said anything inappropriate. > > By contrast, most atheists I debate with are nasty. On this board, atheists have called me an idiot; called me insane; called me ignorant; compared me to a Nazi, a wife-beater, and a pedophile; and told just about any other nasty lie that they can come up with. All this only because I choose to be a follower of Jesus Christ, no other reason. And they often don’t stop there, but extend their tirade of insults and lies to my parents and other family members, my students, my friends, my pastor, and numerous other persons whom they have never met or heard a single word from.) This simply cannot go unrebutted. From the supposedly polite religous people, atheists are [ul] [li]called idiots (see [this](http://www.dailypilot.com/articles/2007/06/03/religion/dpt-intheory02.txt) letter by Rabbi Marc Rubenstein), insane and ignorant (consider your own arguments about the development of methods of knowledge)[/li][li]compared to Nazis and other eugenicists (see your own post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10509005&postcount=5)), mass murders like Stalin and Mao (see Dinesh D’Souza [here](http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html)) and accused of advocating for the practice of bestiality (see your friend E. F. Schumacher [here](http://homepage.mac.com/mhettinger/watchmakerpress/MOQ/reflections/LevelsOfBeingText.html)).[/li][li]told that we cannot have any morality (see the Rabbi’s letter, or [this](http://epologetics.org/atheisticmorality.php#jesusandsatan) lovely blog entry)[/li][li]considered to be the least trustworthy people in the nation and unelectable to public office. On the flip side of the voting issue, how many atheists refused to vote for Obama because of his Christianity? How many were worried that he might be a secret Muslim? Back in the day, how many worried about Kennedy’s Catholicism?[/li][li]routinely told, sometimes from our christian friends and neighbors, that mere torture and death are not sufficient punishment for scum such as us. Only eternal pain and suffering will suffice for the crime of not being religious.[/li][/ul] So please, explain how these accusations are really evidence of the unfailingly polite nature of religious folk. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/158 "2008-12-23T07:14:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m still left with the impression that you don’t feel this way about, for example, unicorns or leprechauns. Is a person who asserts there’s no such thing as a leprechaun just as dogmatic as someone who asserts there is such a thing? Unicorns are most certainly a fairy tale, but I wouldn’t rule out leprechauns or that pot of gold. **Bryan Ekers** and **cosmosdan** , I concede the point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/159 "2008-12-25T02:15:22Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > “Christians have a long tradition of torturing scholars to the point of madness for merely speculating about the nature of the stars.” (from _The End of Faith_) > > Falsely accusing people of torture sure seems like an insult to me. Then you might want to reconsider. An honest mistake is not the same as an intentional insult. {If it’s a mistake at all} If you truly think that’s an insult then you must understand how others feel about some of things Christians say. If that’s all you have to dismiss Harris my point stands. > [@](#): > > I reject Dawkins arguments because they are unsound, and have already started several threads explaining why. The fact that he behaves in such a sophmoric, anti-intellectual way just makes it all the more baffling to me that anyone would take him seriously. I read part of The God Delusion and didn’t find it all that interesting or informative. It’s fairly simple to refute and/or point out the huge flaws in fundamentalist beliefs. > [@](#): > > He is the bestselling promoter of atheism as far as I know. Can’t you all do any better? Ha, I hope by _you all_ you’re not referring to me. I am not an atheist or agnostic. I am a devotee of the truth and it disturbs me when religions claiming to revere the truth cling to tradition when science has shown them to be incorrect. I’ve read many Christian authors who often stray from logic as they explain details of belief. Some are downright mean spirited in attacking beliefs they don’t approve of. Atheist authors are just getting started and pale in comparison. Religion and religious beliefs need to be challenged. As I said , tone matters, and I don’t appreciate insults or ridicule from either side but I’ll tolerate a little if the person is presenting facts and has a reasonable argument. I guess it also depends on what you call an insult. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954/160 "2008-12-25T02:16:22Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > Unicorns are most certainly a fairy tale, but I wouldn’t rule out leprechauns or that pot of gold. > > **Bryan Ekers** and **cosmosdan** , I concede the point. Wow! Is that what a reasonable discussion feels like? It’s…nice. Refreshing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-start-an-agressive-atheist-pride-movement/477954.md?page=7)