# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/192 "2024-11-18T13:51:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One form of this I’ve noticed on the Left is a tendency to fixate on what I’ve heard called “Devil Theories”. A “Devil Theory” is picking something and trying to blame everything wrong on the world on that _one_ thing, building a whole elaborate ideological system that blames all the woes of the world on it. Some pick “the patriarchy”, some “capitalism”, some “hierarchy”, some pick other things. This is a running joke in our household. If something goes wrong, no matter what, we blame one of four things: the patriarchy, late stage capitalism, supply chain issues, or climate change. Surprisingly often it makes some sense, but we recognize that it’s a bad tendency. I’m damn near certain that this isn’t just a tendency on the Left. Everyone from Libertarians to Moms for Liberty to centrist Democrats have their own Devil theories (I love the term). It’s worth recognizing when they show up and acknowledging that things are much more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/193 "2024-11-18T13:52:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If something goes wrong, no matter what, we blame one of four things: the patriarchy, late stage capitalism, supply chain issues, or climate change. Remember “Thanks, Obama!”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/194 "2024-11-18T14:21:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m damn near certain that this isn’t just a tendency on the Left. The Right seems to do it different, though. The Left likes to try to create an ideological system that blames everything on their chosen Devil. The Right doesn’t care about that and just lumps everybody and everything they don’t like in an internally contradictory lump and usually doesn’t even try making it coherent. Instead of everything stemming from one type of evil they just smoosh all evils together in the Satanic Atheist Muslim Jewish Communist Deep State Pedophile Conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/195 "2024-11-18T14:24:05Z")
I actually think you’re smooshing different conservatives together. The QAnon loonies are in their own separate Venn diagram circle from the Biblical literalist loonies. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/196 "2024-11-18T14:43:04Z")
This is the best description I’ve read. I’m going to save it. It applies across the whole spectrum of philosophies. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/197 "2024-11-18T15:14:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Left-wing identity politics casts white men as the bad guys, frequently extending to all white people and/or all men, and the former group makes up over 1/3 of the electorate while the latter groups make up over 2/3 I disagree. That is the right wing’s view of it, though ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/198 "2024-11-18T15:30:43Z")
I’m with you. I’m a white guy and a lefty, in a lefty bubble, surrounded by lefty friends, and I don’t feel like anyone has ever made me into the bad guy. It’s a total right-wing talking point. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/199 "2024-11-18T15:36:47Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That is the right wing’s view of it, though So change it. Make it clear you care about these groups and they are not last in the queue for help - it would be easy to announce that boys/young men have been falling behind in education and you are going to change that, for example. And find an alternative bogeyman. People like to have someone to blame. The left used to blame capitalism and the rich, and there are fringe groups who still do, but the mainstream has moved away from that. Without any other bad guy, many will assume the groups who regularly get described as ‘privileged’ and ‘oppressors’ now fill that role. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/200 "2024-11-18T15:41:11Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It’s a total right-wing talking point. Yes, but people vote off of their perceptions of reality, not off of what reality is. Even if it’s just a right-wing talking point, if that point lands and is believed, then people will vote accordingly. If the Ds cannot or do not effectively combat it, then that will lead to lost elections. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/201 "2024-11-18T15:42:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If the Ds cannot or do not effectively combat it, then that will lead to lost elections. We’re going to lose elections regardless. If Harris didn’t beat fucking Trump, we might as well stop trying. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/202 "2024-11-18T15:47:10Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > If Harris didn’t beat fucking Trump, we might as well stop trying. Dangerous nonsense. I mean, it’s a vibe, but we gotta get back up off the floor, spit the blood out of our mouth, and return to the ring. The thing is, our actual policy ideas are more popular than the right’s policy ideas, when you strip away party identification. Here in North Carolina, Democrats won the majority of votes for state legislator seats, and with that we barely broke the right’s supermajority. Our financial policies are incontrovertibly better for working class bank accounts than the right’s. We have a shit-ton on our side. The right, on its side, has class warfare, culture warfare, and an astonishing Death Star of a propaganda machine. They’re using all their resources to overcome our advantages on policy. But their victory is not eternal or predetermined. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/203 "2024-11-18T15:50:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And find an alternative bogeyman. Take the position of the Right and blame everything on the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/204 "2024-11-18T15:51:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m with you. I’m a white guy and a lefty, in a lefty bubble, surrounded by lefty friends, and I don’t feel like anyone has ever made me into the bad guy. It’s a total right-wing talking point. Meh. It sometimes happens. And it’s wrong when it happens. But it’s nowhere equivalent to, say, legitimizing rape culture in terms of how dangerous it is. The main danger is that White guys who have trouble brushing off shitty insults get radicalized by alt-Righters who take advantage of their fragility. That’s a real enough danger that I think it’s bad strategy for leftists to be sloppy in their statements. I’ve come to the conclusion that the Left needs a figure that’s somewhere between Taylor Swift and Andrew Tate: someone that young White boys can look up to in the way that so many White girls look up to Taylor Swift, but who isn’t a garbage human being like Andrew Tate is. We need a model of attractive, young, sexy masculinity who embodies the left’s values of respect, compassion, and minding your own damn business. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/205 "2024-11-18T15:58:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Meh. It sometimes happens. And it’s wrong when it happens. But it’s nowhere equivalent to, say, legitimizing rape culture in terms of how dangerous it is. I have no doubt that you can nutpick folks on Twitter or whatever. It doesn’t really happen in real life, at least in my experience. I mean, you can find regular mainstream Republicans saying awful things about women and minorities all day long, right? I’d love a link to all the handwringing that the GOP does about this. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/206 "2024-11-18T16:34:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Take the position of the Right and blame everything on the Jews? They prefer Muslims these days. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve come to the conclusion that the Left needs a figure that’s somewhere between Taylor Swift and Andrew Tate: someone that young White boys can look up to in the way that so many White girls look up to Taylor Swift, but who isn’t a garbage human being like Andrew Tate is. We need a model of attractive, young, sexy masculinity who embodies the left’s values of respect, compassion, and minding your own damn business. This is actually a good suggestion. This board trends old and the majority grew up in the pre-internet era, but among young men/boys there seems to be a crisis of not knowing how they should fit into the world and what they can offer as men. Scumbag influencers like Tate are able to step right into that gap and the spread their ideology. Meanwhile the left struggles to offer a positive vision that isn’t just ‘be more like women’. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/207 "2024-11-18T16:50:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Scumbag influencers like Tate are able to step right into that gap and the spread their ideology. Meanwhile the left struggles to offer a positive vision that isn’t just ‘be more like women’. I don’t think “be more like women” is a meaningful expression, but don’t want to go too far afield in that direction. I think the struggle is to offer a _specific_ role model. Andrew Tate is, if nothing else, specific. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/208 "2024-11-18T16:56:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They prefer Muslims these days. Ahh yes, I forgot about the Muslim space lasers, “Muslims will not replace us!”, and all of those attacks on Globalists (et al.) who curiously always turn out to be Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/209 "2024-11-18T17:56:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think the struggle is to offer a _specific_ role model. Andrew Tate is, if nothing else, specific. IMO the lack of suitable role models is a symptom of a broader issue in society and particularly on the left, so finding one would be a positive sign in addition to the direct benefits to young men. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/210 "2024-11-18T18:12:23Z")
Richard Gere, Will Farrell, Billy Eichner, John Oliver, Harrison Ford, Robert Downey, Jr., Mark Ruffalo, Chris Evans, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Leonardo DiCaprio, Eminem…etc., all white guys who don’t feel like the left is blaming them for anything and endorsed Kamala Harris (from [here](https://deadline.com/gallery/kamala-harris-celebrity-endorsements-sally-field-ben-stiller/willie-nelson-austin-city-limits-tv-taping/)). I have no idea who Andrew Tate is and why he is so attractive to men, but I would think John Oliver is one answer from the left who is a popular TV personality that is ranting about problems from the perspective of the left. Bruce Springsteen is an out and proud lefty, for all the good that does. George Clooney, too. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/211 "2024-11-18T18:31:27Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Bruce Springsteen is an out and proud lefty, for all the good that does. George Clooney, too. Come on. He had that song, “Born in the USA,” and I don’t know what could be more right wing and patroitic than that. What do you mean I should listen to the lyrics other than the chorus? On a more serious note, for young men in particular, I think a lot of them see a bleak future with few opportunities for themselves. People who feel that way are more inclined to adopt radical views whether it’s fascism or communism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=11)