# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/372 "2024-11-24T20:42:33Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > “They’ve been wrong every previous time; now, they’re just wrong at the speed of light.” Naturally progressives believe the various changes they have made to society are good and have made life better. What on earth makes you think conservatives agree? Many are avowedly unhappy with how things are going. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/373 "2024-11-24T20:44:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m saying ‘maybe don’t rush ahead passing laws most people oppose’ And those laws would be what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/374 "2024-11-24T20:44:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Naturally progressives believe the various changes they have made to society are good and have made life better. What on earth makes you think conservatives agree? Many are avowedly unhappy with how things are going. Because many of those things have become enshrined in America- both parties- Social Security, the 40 hour week, medicare, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/375 "2024-11-24T21:00:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Naturally progressives believe the various changes they have made to society are good and have made life better. What on earth makes you think conservatives agree? Many are avowedly unhappy with how things are going. I’ll refer you back to – at least on my view – post #338 above: > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/349): > > One more that I hope can provide a bit of context for pretty much any conversation (that has taken place in the US since about 1776) about ‘culture war’ issues: One of the innumerable consequences of the obstinacy and cognitive rigidity of social conservatives as a group is their seeming inability to grasp a sense of relevant history. As each group that they’ve aggressively tried to marginalize began to get equal rights, the sky simply didn’t fall. The social conservatives – as is pretty much… ETA: And #342: > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/342): > > When it comes to these “cultural issues …” I think there’s a lot of wisdom to be gleaned from this study: A study by scientists at New York University and the University of California, Los Angeles, found differences in how self-described liberal and conservative research participants responded to changes in patterns. Participants were asked to tap a keyboard when the letter “M” appeared on a computer monitor and to refrain from tapping when they saw a “W.” The letter “M” appeared four times m… Just a quick f’rinstance: When the Civil Rights Act was passed, in 1964, and “Christians” HAD to start serving lunch to black people (among other things), what _really_ happened? When Loving v Virginia was decided, in 1967, legalizing interracial marriage, what _really_ happened?? Did God smite the South? Did California fall into the sea? Did the stock market crash?? Did the Soviets suddenly win the Cold War? Or did a few cognitively rigid and zealously dogmatic religious folks’ heads explode, and … other than that … business as usual (, or better)? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/376 "2024-11-24T21:03:53Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Did California fall into the sea? No, but _they_ had legalized it (interracial marriage) in 1948. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/377 "2024-11-24T21:05:09Z")
And you notice that the only ‘tangible’ consequence the social conservatives can point to _is_ natural disasters. Proving how unbearably cynical their leaders actually are, and how unimaginably credulous they’ve determined their followers to be. ETA: incidentally, that was the day I moved back to Annandale 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/378 "2024-11-24T21:22:15Z")
Couple other related points to ponder: 1. It’s hard to imagine any rational justification for letting “Eww,” “Gross,” and “Icky” serve as the basis for our Civil Laws. Wait until we turn _that one_ around on _you;_ 2. How many times more likely are you to be shot while shopping than you are to be harmed by an LGBTQ person in the lavatory? Hint: it’s a big number; 3. The anti-woke movement is probably the apotheosis _of_ “virtue signaling.” They turn their back on innumerable actual harms every single day in order to demonstrate to their compatriots how ‘good’ and ‘decent’ and ‘just’ and ‘Christian’ they are – all in direct opposition to the teachings _of_ Jesus Christ; 4. A few quotes that truly capture the essence of Christianity, and are summarily ignored by the most vocal of “Christians:” > Judge not, lest ye be judged > Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. > Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. > Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. WWJD? That. Jesus would do … that. That’s what Jesus _would_ do. Jesus Christ was the archetype of being Woke AF. His most vocal followers? Not quite so much. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/379 "2024-11-24T21:45:12Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > WWJD? That. Jesus would do … that. That’s what Jesus _would_ do. > > Jesus Christ was the archetype of being Woke AF. Exactly- the right wing Evangelicals are no longer following the teachings of Jesus. They are no longer really Christians. Jesus never mentioned- abortion, cross dressing, Homosexuality and a bunch of other things the RW Evangelicals are so sure are so evil. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/380 "2024-11-24T22:19:27Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And those laws would be what exactly? …indeed. Its hard to have a great debate when someone chooses not to tell us what the debate is about. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/381 "2024-11-24T22:54:15Z")
As I said, I see no reason to pretend that it is not about trans rights. Let the unspoken be spoken, and let’s move forward. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/382 "2024-11-24T23:17:06Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > The term “hard R” is often used at least online to allude to the difference. Thank you for the explanation. I have not previously heard that expression. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Listen to working class folks. Really listen. Devise policy from the ground up, in a transparent fashion that involves meaningful input from working class folks. Solicit leadership from folks with working-class backgrounds (union leaders, bartenders, community organizers, etc.), and help them access the training and education they need in order to become effective in the world of politics. Yes. Absolutely. The only way to turn the tide is to find the issues that the working class really want addressed, versus the bogeymen set up by the right and some assumed desires by the left. Visibly meeting with blue collar people and the folks that feel maligned, the self-professed rednecks, the rural population, and taking their concerns seriously, giving them a voice. Then finding real solutions. Harris saw pocketbook issues and tried to address them with real solutions she could actually implement that would help. But they were specific, and didn’t address the needs of everyone. Trump promised everybody everything, but primarily promised to bring prices back down. The likelihood he can actually do much there is low, but lies sell. > [@DemonTree](#): > > You can’t be the party of a large educated class _and_ of blue collar workers, because their interests and preferences are different, I disagree. Economic improvements that help the middle class and aspiring middle class are doable. The bigger challenge in my mind is the urban/rural divide. That effects the gun control debate, but also the education/elitist perception. There is some conflict when you start talking things like energy jobs, because the educated are concerned about climate change and the environmental impact of fracking, but the rural energy workers are concerned about their jobs. Trying to get them on board with transitioning to new energy jobs has been difficult. But if the Republicans can find a way to merge the working class with the billionaires, there’s got to be some path that will work. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And then you bring up a ridiculous strawman. 🙄 It’s not a strawman. The thread title is about toning down “woke” and the biggest woke issue was trans rights. It’s the issue that was hammered in ads. It’s where the current shortage of understanding and tolerance is manifesting. It’s what is feeding the book banning and education control issues. It’s a bigger bogeyman than CRT. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > One difference being, in the past, the pace of major social changes was _generational_. I’m not sure the pace of change has escalated. I think the accumulation of change has been building. What is different is the disinformation stream has been working on people for three decades, and building a subculture that only trusts version sources that cater to their preconceptions. It’s the channelization of information and opinions and the social media algorithms siloing information. It feeds the two cultures aspect of our society, where liberals see one way of viewing issues and conservatives a different one. When even the facts aren’t in agreement, opinions certainly can’t be. Couple that with aging boomers and silent generation still controlling things in a way that older generations didn’t because of advances in longevity and health, and the generation turnover isn’t happening at the same pace. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > But then we’re back to people who’ve been thoroughly indoctrinated and whose critical thinking skills are radically subpar. Indoctrination is very much the key. Decades of feeding the narrative that all liberals are socialists/commies, and conservatives are better for the economy. Decades of mocking liberal attitudes of understanding and treating all people with respect by labels like “politically correct” and “cancel culture” and CRT and “woke”. Making “compromise” a dirty word, then moving to obstruction. The same people who cheered the Cold War against the Soviet Union now accept the message that Putin’s Russia is not a threat and we shouldn’t be funding Ukraine. Veterans think Trump cares more about them than Biden. Christians feeling the sting of losing their preferred position in defining morality and imposing their beliefs on society reacting with a surge to the candidate that promises them a return to their preferred state of control. A lot of Latinos are Catholic, and some are going Protestant but active with conservative morals. They side with the evangelicals. My small business owner friend got slammed by taxes for Obamacare. These things add up. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m saying ‘maybe don’t rush ahead passing laws most people oppose’, That doesn’t stop the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/383 "2024-11-24T23:18:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I said, I see no reason to pretend that it is not about trans rights. Let the unspoken be spoken, and let’s move forward. …it was? If that’s the case (and am open to be corrected), then the woke position here is that trans rights are human rights. And that trans women should be able to use the bathroom both of their choice, and which will make them _safer_. That decisions like puberty blockers for children are a decision best made between the doctor, the parents and the child, based on the science. Are these positions “popular?” Would most people “oppose” passing laws to protect trans people? Possibly. But I don’t think issues of human rights should come down to a popularity contest. And when you’ve got one side committed to spending millions spreading mostly false and unscientific propaganda, and the other side basically not wanting to talk about it BECAUSE the topic has been so badly weoponized, the role of the woke here should be obvious. The woke _have_ to speak out. We can’t afford to tone it down. Because we are the final line of defence. If we don’t hold the line: _nobody else will_. Thats why I’m vocal on this board. About trans rights. About indigenous peoples. About the police and prisons. About Gaza. I’m often an unpopular voice. I don’t really care. Actually, that isn’t quite true. It can be painful. You sometimes get accused of the most horrible things. You doubt yourself. It gets lonely. But in real life: the stakes are so _high_. Literal lives are on the line. So this particular wokester is never toning it down. No matter how unpopular I get. No matter how much it hurts. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/384 "2024-11-24T23:25:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it was? > > If that’s the case (and am open to be corrected), then the woke position here is that trans rights are human rights. And that trans women should be able to use the bathroom both of their choice, and which will make them _safer_. That decisions like puberty blockers for children are a decision best made between the doctor, the parents and the child, based on the science. > > Are these positions “popular?” Would most people “oppose” passing laws to protect trans people? I quote from memory and from an official tv ad endorsed by Trump. “Kamala Harris thinks the government should pay for sex changes for prisoners!” “Harris is for they/them! Trump is for you!” That is only one ad, and only OTTOMH. If I did thirty seconds of searching, even with my weak Google fu, I could find a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/385 "2024-11-24T23:25:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > This sort of reminds me of the standard norms here at SDMB about non-Pit discussion. We should not say “you’re a liar” but rather “_that statement_ is not true”, but the person will be likely to feel you did call them a liar. And it’s a rule that makes it _much_ easier for troll and liars to shape the conversation and make their opponents look bad, while making them look better than they are. Just like rules like “don’t call them fascists” have made it much easier for the fascists. The Republicans are trolls, and the “rules of decorum” favor trolls in practice. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/386 "2024-11-24T23:28:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Are these positions “popular?” Would most people “oppose” passing laws to protect trans people? Florid has DeSantos ‘Don’t Say Gay’ law. At least one other state has a law that teachers and all other school personell must report the following to parents- A student starts using a name of a gender other than the one on their birth certificate A student starts wearing clothes of a gender other than the one on their birth certificate. A student starts to transition in pretty much any other way. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/387 "2024-11-24T23:31:14Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Florid has DeSantos ‘Don’t Say Gay’ law. At least one other state has a law that teachers and all other school personell must report the following to parents- …thanks 🙂 But it was more of a rhetorical question. Is this unpopular? Sure. But this wokester doesn’t care 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/388 "2024-11-24T23:32:04Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I disagree. Economic improvements that help the middle class and aspiring middle class are doable. Yeah, the greatest aspiration of the post war (WWII) blue collar worker was that their sons would go to college and not have to break their bodies for, fundamentally, nothing in return. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/389 "2024-11-24T23:32:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Naturally progressives believe the various changes they have made to society are good and have made life better. What on earth makes you think conservatives agree? Many are avowedly unhappy with how things are going. Yes, we see that. But women’s suffrage, birth control access, safe abortions, equal rights for Blacks, legalizing homosexuality, then legalizing gay marriage, kicking prayer out of schools, reducing the influence of Christianity in government and allowing diverse religions acceptance, promoting fairness in hiring, and trying to eradicate sexual harassment in the workplace are all positive goals that improve lives and make our society more open and more free. The people who claim to love freedom as if they are the only ones who do are also the ones trying to take away freedom. Trans rights are just the next bump on the way to a society that let’s people be themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/390 "2024-11-24T23:37:42Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Economic improvements that help the middle class and aspiring middle class are doable. Yeah, but the Republicans have not only systematically sabotaged such efforts, but successfully blamed the Democrats for it while demonizing anything that might actually help as “socialism”. It’s not an unsolvable problem, it’s just a problem that we’ve as a society _refused_ to solve; and now we’ve put the people who want no solution into power. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/391 "2024-11-24T23:39:50Z")
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