# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/392 "2024-11-24T23:55:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I said, I see no reason to pretend that it is not about trans rights. Let the unspoken be spoken, and let’s move forward. That didnt move the needle. If you are a bigot- you voted for trump- period. What causes trump to win was inflation and xenophobia over the the (southern) Border. Not the left with trans rights. > [@DocCathode](#): > > “Kamala Harris thinks the government should pay for sex changes for prisoners!” > **[Harris has supported gender-affirming care for incarcerated people, but Trump...](https://19thnews.org/2024/10/harris-gender-affirming-care-incarcerated-people-fact-check/)** > > During the 2019 Democratic primary, Harris supported access to gender-affirming surgery for people in federal prisons and immigration detention. In recent comments, she has said she will "follow the law." _Harris’ history on gender-affirming care for federal detainees is more nuanced than ad suggests_ ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/393 "2024-11-25T00:00:54Z")
Why did you correct me? I made it clear that I was quoting an official Trump ad. My quote is what the ad said. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/394 "2024-11-25T00:03:10Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Jesus Christ was the archetype of being Woke AF. His most vocal followers? Not quite so much. Jesus’s most vocal followers think Jesus said, “He who is without sin cast the first stone.” Them Jesus picked up a stone and beaned the prostitute in the head and said, “Okay, _now_ it’s your turn.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/395 "2024-11-25T00:30:08Z")
They aren’t exact coy about it: > [@What could the Harris campaign have done differently?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-harris-campaign-have-done-differently/1009798/325): > > The Democrats have followed the strategy of championing oppressed minorities, focusing on ever tinier and more aberrant fringe groups, to the point of diminishing returns. First African-Americans, then women, then gays, and now various flavors of non-binaries. I’m not sure there’s anywhere left to go except for maybe incest practitioners. The idea is to first force the Democrats to repudiate and vilify transgender people and then move on to the next “aberrant” group after that. The Republicans are finally in the position to effectively turn the ratchet of diminishing civil rights. They aren’t going to give up and they want you to join them. You might think that giving up ground today will help and once back in power you’ll reinstate those rights, but you’ll never give it back. In fact, the addiction to power will make many even forget they used to believe in these issues at all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/396 "2024-11-25T01:37:07Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > The idea is to first force the Democrats to repudiate and vilify transgender people and then move on to the next “aberrant” group after that. Exactly; it’s political “salami slicing”. They encourage the Democrats to turn their backs on one minority group after another, which both reduces their numbers and increases their reputation as unreliable backstabbers. Decreasing their influence with anyone whose left. Then the Democrats collectively scratch their head wondering why people don’t want to vote for them, and why they are less powerful instead of more. And we know what the endpoint of _that_ is. > First they came for the Communists > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a Communist > Then they came for the Socialists > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a Socialist > Then they came for the trade unionists > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a trade unionist > Then they came for the Jews > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a Jew > Then they came for me > And there was no one left > To speak out for me ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/397 "2024-11-25T01:49:45Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > and then move on to the next “aberrant” group after that. Right, it’s not only about transgender issues, never was. Just that right now _this_ happened to be the most vulnerable, exposed target of opportunity in the “culture war” front, and any halfway-able warfighter will exploit the vulnerable weak spot in the defenses. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/398 "2024-11-25T02:28:23Z")
Sorry I’m travelling so I’m a bit behind. > [@DemonTree](#): > > No I’m not [suggesting people’s feelings should trump others freedom], and I’m not debating that subject in this thread So it didn’t go anywhere to point out that “all our actions affect others”. Sure, me breathing is slightly reducing the O2 concentration in my proximity… But obviously by “affect others” we typically mean _harming_ others or my choice limiting your choices. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s kind of parallel to how the Republican party treats black Americans: even if elected Republicans rarely say anything blatantly racist towards them It’s not parallel at all because republican **leaders** frequently say racist things, support racist policies, support explicitly white nationalist groups and (re-) post racist material. Versus on the American left, we can find some random people who are jerks…just as you can find jerks in any group of appreciable size. As usual, this attempt at “both sides” fails spectacularly. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I live in the UK and talk to people, I followed prominent people on Twitter, not anons, and this attitude was extremely prevalent everywhere post referendum I’m British too, and IME no, there weren’t significant numbers of people looking down on others. Whose anecdote wins? But if you can cite the prominent people of twitter’s comments, I’m open minded. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/399 "2024-11-25T03:20:13Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Why did you correct me? I made it clear that I was quoting an official Trump ad. My quote is what the ad said. Yes, I got that. But that was more for Left\_hand\_of\_Dorkness. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/400 "2024-11-25T03:35:17Z")
Who knows what’s going to be important to people in a few years? I don’t remember transgender issues being a big concern during the 2016 or 2020 presidential elections. It wasn’t even that long ago Trump poked fun at his audience for getting all riled up about woke, telling them they didn’t even know what it meant, yet acting subdued when he talked about tax cuts. Given the mercurial nature of the American voters’ concerns, maybe throwing people under the bus isn’t a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/401 "2024-11-25T04:01:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > I live in the UK and talk to people, I followed prominent people on Twitter, not anons, and this attitude was extremely prevalent everywhere post referendum > > I’m British too, and IME no, there weren’t significant numbers of people looking down on others. Whose anecdote wins? > > But if you can cite the prominent people of twitter’s comments, I’m open minded. BTW, when one takes into account how the latest election did go in Britain, it does give me hope. While it is true that bad times are coming, it is likely that a lot of the people that did vote for the conservatives will see the results of their error. And like in Britain, a good number of the people of the US will not be amused that a lot of the economical (and immigration) things promised by Trump will not materialize. And… Speaking of “Woke”, it was fun to see how some conservatives in Britain blaming their defeat to a good number of Tories trying to become more “woke” so as to prevent the pasting that they got. > **[Too many Tories went ‘woke’ to win votes, says Truss](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/30/liz-truss-conservative-conference-woke-culture-wars-reform/)** > > Ex-PM tells The Telegraph’s Tim Stanley there has been a cultural battle that Conservatives have failed to stand up against ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/402 "2024-11-25T04:09:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > BTW, when one takes into account how the latest election did go in Britain, it does give me hope. Just like in 2020. trumps promises will not come through- many of them cant come through. Inflation will likely rise back up, especially with tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/403 "2024-11-25T04:19:04Z")
I never advocated that the Democrats ought to roll back their support or suggested that doing so would win them anything. I merely pointed out that that’s what has alienated a large percentage of the mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/404 "2024-11-25T04:32:52Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I merely pointed out that that’s what has alienated a large percentage of the mainstream. What alienated “a large percentage of the mainstream” is the lies of the Republicans, not anything the Democrats _actually_ did. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/405 "2024-11-25T08:24:56Z")
Yep; we’ve had this over and over again. What was this overly progressive policy that alienated voters? And remember, again, it has to be something both 1) true and 2) well-known for it to have relevance to the outcome of this election and be within democrats power to fix. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/406 "2024-11-25T15:05:21Z")
This article in The Guardian supports @Mijin’s point that the Democrats did not present a “woke” campaign," suggests why that was the case, and argues instead the failure of the Democrats lies in the fact that “the patrician class…hijacked identity politics” for its own purposes. The chief purpose was to avoid and evade “the recognition that the common enemy is the way in which society itself is designed. In short, the universal problem facing people of all identities in the US and the UK is hostility to those who lack capital in all its forms.” Without recognizing that, it is hard to see how Democrats and “progressives” broadly defined will be able to muster majorities at the polls and elsewhere, even though the people who lack capital make up the overwhelming majority of the population. > **[‘Woke’ didn’t lose the US election: the patrician class who hijacked identity...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/25/woke-lost-us-election-patrician-class-identity-politics)** > > Why is this simple explanation being so widely embraced? Because it does not require a commitment to real, structural change, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/407 "2024-11-25T16:18:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Just like in 2020. trumps promises will not come through- many of them cant come through. Inflation will likely rise back up, especially with tariffs. Tariffs may well be another promise than never comes through. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/408 "2024-11-25T18:07:49Z")
When WB was issuing their Looney Tunes Golden Collections, volume 3 they started dipping into some that had sexual and – even moreso – racial stereotypes. Included was a video statement by Whoopie Goldberg that those stereotypes were wrong then and are wrong now but, “removing these inexcusable images and jokes from this collection would be the same as saying [these prejudices] never existed”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/409 "2024-11-25T20:14:20Z")
Which is, of course, a defensible stance. Another defensible stance is that when entertainment is predicated on hurting others, it’s not a great idea to continue using it _for entertainment_. It’s very possible to maintain the collection as an historical artifact without monetizing it as a source of hilarity anymore. Refusing to monetize the sexual and racial shit is not erasing history; it’s just keeping that part of history from being treated in the lighthearted fashion we usually treat children’s cartoons. Is my previous paragraph the sort of “wokeness” that needs to be toned down? Or is it a defensible stance that reasonable people can discuss? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/410 "2024-11-25T20:46:30Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Tariffs may well be another promise than never comes through. He did actually impose tariffs on China for a bit. (The Oval office can do so without Congress for s short time for an 'emergency".) > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Which is, of course, a defensible stance. Another defensible stance is that when entertainment is predicated on hurting others, it’s not a great idea to continue using it _for entertainment_. About half of TV humor is making fun of stupid people. Most sitcoms and quite a few movies would have to be canceled then. And of course this means _Gone with the Wind_ cant be shown anymore- except in special circumstances. Which is fine with me, that racist garbage should never be show on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/411 "2024-11-25T22:29:00Z")
This is getting way too off-topic for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=21)