# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/412 "2024-11-26T01:19:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because many of those things have become enshrined in America- both parties- Social Security, the 40 hour week, medicare, etc. We are talking about social changes here, not the 40 hour week. The kind that have lead to widespread divorce, a plummeting birthrate, large numbers of single parents, and way too many young people being unable to find relationships. These are things I have seen conservatives complaining about. I’m not keen to turn the clock back, but it’s also not crazy to see these as changes for the worse. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hardly. I refuse to play the game where we pretend like that’s not the subtext. It’s not my subtext. But _I_ refuse to waste time trying to convince anyone who would rather believe their invented subtext than try to understand my actual thoughts. > [@Mijin](#): > > So it didn’t go anywhere to point out that “all our actions affect others”. Sure, me breathing is slightly reducing the O2 concentration in my proximity… But obviously by “affect others” we typically mean _harming_ others or my choice limiting your choices. To cover it properly would be way outside the scope of this thread and I don’t want to derail it. Not sure I want to go into it at all considering it will be a lot of effort for an unsympathetic audience. > [@Mijin](#): > > It’s not parallel at all because republican **leaders** frequently say racist things, support racist policies, support explicitly white nationalist groups and (re-) post racist material. > > Versus on the American left, we can find some random people who are jerks…just as you can find jerks in any group of appreciable size. It’s not random jerks, it’s the prevailing view on the left, ubiquitous on social media, and influencing Dem leaders enough that conservative media can get their sound bites. > [@Mijin](#): > > I’m British too, and IME no, there weren’t significant numbers of people looking down on others. Whose anecdote wins? I know, that’s why I brought it up. Did you really never notice anyone doing this? Once I saw it, I saw it everywhere, but it would be pretty damn hard to find enough tweets from 8 years ago to demonstrate anything meaningful. Maybe I’ll spend some time looking if I have nothing better to do. > [@Mijin](#): > > Yep; we’ve had this over and over again. What was this overly progressive policy that alienated voters? And remember, again, it has to be something both 1) true and 2) well-known for it to have relevance to the outcome of this election and be within democrats power to fix. Probably not what was meant, but the answer is obviously the border. [[Album] imgur.com ![](https://i.imgur.com/jKrxr0Y.png?fb "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/a/r0a1UKP) ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/413 "2024-11-26T01:21:36Z")
Ok give me your laws that you want the Democrats propose to ensure that white men can find relationships and regain power you think they naturally deserve . ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/414 "2024-11-26T01:29:50Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Probably not what was meant, but the answer is obviously the border. > > [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](https://imgur.com/a/r0a1UKP) Hmm, I wonder if there was something happening in the world that might have affected those numbers. Not that those numbers even, necessarily, mean what folks want them to appear to mean. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/415 "2024-11-26T01:51:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Who knows what’s going to be important to people in a few years? I know! I know! July 4, 2026, 250th anniversary of the United States. If Democrats want to at least take back the House of Representatives in 2026, this should be treated as a national point of pride rather than an opportunity to reflect on the shamefulness of our history. But I suspect this is a big ask. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/416 "2024-11-26T01:51:33Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not random jerks, it’s the prevailing view on the left, ubiquitous on social media, and influencing Dem leaders enough that conservative media can get their sound bites How do you know about this influence on Dem leaders – what are the examples of policy or rhetoric in the Democratic party? Because right now it does look a lot like an unfalsifiable claim. You can find people on the internet saying anything, and you can insinuate that the Democratic party is _secretly_ doing their bidding but not in a way that changes policy or we can see. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Did you really never notice anyone doing this? Once I saw it, I saw it everywhere, No. Perhaps you mistook people disagreeing with the reasons for Brexit with snobbishness? But again, I’ve said I’m happy to be proven wrong with any example whatsoever. Also: do you acknowledge that the Brexit campaign used the idea of “elitism” in their campaign, even though it was run by people who fit the mould of privileged elites better than anyone? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Probably not what was meant, but the answer is obviously the border But that isn’t an example of progressive policies; little actually changed policy-wise at the border. Biden largely just went back to the pre covid policies which resulted in an influx after pent up demand. And it’s convenient that they graph stops prior to the effect of biden’s executive actions kicking in which have cut crossings down to lower than during trump’s term. Finally, who was it that blocked the border bill? Why isn’t he being blamed for being “woke” in blocking a conservative plan to massively beef up security? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/417 "2024-11-26T02:00:11Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > We are talking about social changes here, not the 40 hour week. That IS a social change. > [@DemonTree](#): > > The kind that have lead to widespread divorce, a plummeting birthrate, large numbers of single parents, and way too many young people being unable to find relationships. Please be exact. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Probably not what was meant, but the answer is obviously the border. Was that a “policy” , can you name it? Note that Covid greatly reduced Border crossings. And those are ‘encounters’, not successful crossings into the USA. And where did that graph come from? > [@Mijin](#): > > But that isn’t an example of progressive policies; little actually changed policy-wise at the border. Biden largely just went back to the pre covid policies which resulted in an influx after pent up demand. > And it’s convenient that they graph stops prior to the effect of biden’s executive actions kicking in which have cut crossings down to lower than during trump’s term. > > Finally, who was it that blocked the border bill? Why isn’t he being blamed for being “woke” in blocking a conservative plan to massively beef up security? Right. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/418 "2024-11-26T02:05:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The kind that have lead to widespread divorce, a plummeting birthrate, large numbers of single parents, and way too many young people being unable to find relationships. Letting women vote and own property and be independent people and have control over their own reproductive decisions is the root cause to much of that. Allowing no fault divorce. People making their lives about their happiness instead of a lifetime commitment to some asshole they didn’t really know when they got married (women can be assholes, too). Is it young _people_ unable to find relationships, or some young _men_? ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/419 "2024-11-26T02:11:06Z")
Remember they said that women were one of the aberrant groups of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/420 "2024-11-26T02:37:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > How do you know about this influence on Dem leaders – what are the examples of policy or rhetoric in the Democratic party? There is a something there there. Culturally, there is an attitude from educated urbanites stereotyping rural white folks. You know the meme - you might be a redneck if you do. Then there’s the more venomous version, white trash. Both of those may start with disdain over certain behaviors that are problematic - racism, sexism, whatever. But that gets wrapped up with harmless subculture elements like hairstyles and clothing, or practices that have a different context, like gun ownership. That disdain for rural society is especially felt by the working class, the non-college educated. And that is what is perceived as elitism from the left. What has happened is that the Republicans have been able to play identity politics and get urban working class to feel more solidarity with the rural people than with college educated urbanites. That “elitism” is the angle. But they feed that narrative with the vocal left trying to change society to treat people better. That is wokism, and it is being criticized as self- righteous preaching, or worse, virtue signaling. The right dismisses the criticism as overly sensitive nannies who want to make everyone conform to some silly ideas about people, to accept blatant nonsense as truth. Again that is me describing their perception, not my own judgment. When Democratic leaders like Bernie Sanders and AOC and the squad voice liberal ideas about, say, trans rights, the right takes that as confirmation that the left is silly nonsense, or else masked danger. That judgemental language about behavior tied to judgemental language about subculture and superficial appearance becomes noise. It becomes a source of pride to stand up for their group and oppose the judgemental group. That’s how the Republicans have pulled the working class to support the Uber rich businessmen over the middle class promoting dems. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/421 "2024-11-26T03:41:37Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > There is a something there there. Culturally, there is an attitude from educated urbanites stereotyping rural white folks. You know the meme - you might be a redneck if you do. Oh absolutely. And of course there will be some subset of urban graduates who do indeed look down on “flyover country” (literally). But, as you say, a lot of this has been exaggerated and caricatured for political gain by the GOP. Just as the millionaire privately-educated sons of newspaper editors and hedge fund managers in my native UK managed to sell themselves as working-class heroes fighting the “elites”, so it is with ivy league law graduates in the US (let alone trump himself). It’s so sad to see it working time and again. Some of the poorest parts of America being tricked into attacking the wrong enemy and voting against their own interests. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/422 "2024-11-26T03:51:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But, as you say, a lot of this has been exaggerated and caricatured for political gain by the GOP. And that’s not mentioning how conservatives, among others, have weaponized harmless subculture elements like hairstyles and clothing. See: [Cornrows](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornrows) and [sagging](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagging_(fashion)) et al. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/423 "2024-11-26T12:39:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But that isn’t an example of progressive policies; little actually changed policy-wise at the border. Biden largely just went back to the pre covid policies which resulted in an influx after pent up demand. > And it’s convenient that they graph stops prior to the effect of biden’s executive actions kicking in which have cut crossings down to lower than during trump’s term. > > Finally, who was it that blocked the border bill? Why isn’t he being blamed for being “woke” in blocking a conservative plan to massively beef up security? I’ll reply to the rest later, but come on. Biden’s ‘post Covid surge’ is bigger than any time during Trump’s presidency, most of which was pre-Covid - and numbers stayed that way right into 2024. We know Biden could have done something about it, because he just did. He’s successfully reduced the flow via executive actions. Why didn’t he do that in 2021 or 2022 when it would have made far more difference? Why didn’t the Dems try to pass the border bill years ago, when the Republicans probably wouldn’t have blocked it, or if they had there would have been years to put the blame on them? It’s easy for their base to forgive them delaying action for a few months in order to get elected, far less so if it had gone on multiple years with more and more migrants arriving. IMHO this is the single thing the Democrats could have done that would have made the most difference. They knew damn well that immigration and the border was a significant factor in Trump’s first election, so why didn’t they act? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/424 "2024-11-26T14:40:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why didn’t the Dems try to pass the border bill years ago, when the Republicans probably wouldn’t have blocked it, The very first bill Biden proposed was to strengthen border security and reduce the asylum backlogs. It was rejected by the Republicans because it was too nice to the people already here. [Immigration policy of the Joe Biden administration - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy_of_the_Joe_Biden_administration#:~:text=On%20his%20first%20day%20in,of%20entry%20through%20modern%20technology). ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/425 "2024-11-26T15:36:31Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The very first bill Biden proposed was to strengthen border security and reduce the asylum backlogs. It was rejected by the Republicans because it was too nice to the people already here. The first thing the article says is: > [@](#): > > The immigration policy of American President [Joseph Biden](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Biden) initially focused on reversing many of the [immigration policies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy_of_Donald_Trump) of the previous [Trump administration](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_presidency_of_Donald_Trump), before implementing stricter enforcement mechanisms later in his term. Sure sounds like it was policy to me. This is how Wikipedia describes the U.S. Citizenship Act of 2021: > [@](#): > > The bill would have made sweeping changes across the board to the United States immigration, visa, and border control system, including reversal and Congressional prohibition of many of the [immigration-related executive actions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy_of_Donald_Trump#Executive_actions) of former president [Donald Trump](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump); providing a path to legal residence and eventual citizenship for as many as 11 million [illegal immigrants in the United States](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States), as well as current [DACA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals) and [Temporary Protected Status](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_protected_status) beneficiaries, essential workers on a non-immigrant status, and agricultural laborers; recreating the [V visa](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_visa) program to allow families to await immigrant visa approval together in the US; ending country-specific visa annual maximums; granting immediate relative status to spouses and children of green card holders; and other changes.[[5]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Citizenship_Act_of_2021#cite_note-5) This seems to be mostly about granting citizenship to existing illegal immigrants, something that would act as a huge pull factor encouraging further illegal immigration. It included a few provisions on the border, but it’s not a border security bill. Progressive policy in action. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/426 "2024-11-26T15:42:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It included a few provisions on the border, but it’s not a border security bill. No bill involving immigration is a “border security bill”, because immigration isn’t a _security_ problem in the first place. It’s a bigotry and labor exploitation problem. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/427 "2024-11-26T17:42:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > This seems to be mostly about granting citizenship to existing illegal immigrants, something that would act as a huge pull factor encouraging further illegal immigration. It included a few provisions on the border, but it’s not a border security bill. > > Progressive policy in action. Trump had set up _literal concentration camps_ for undocumented immigrants. They were immensely unpopular and, more importantly, horribly inhumane. Of course Biden’s first order of business was to undo many of Trump’s horrible policies. He didn’t undo enough of them. And yes, Biden also set up a “path to citizenship” as opposed to the militarized deportation nightmare that Trump is proposing. In addition to being far more humane, this proposal is significantly more popular: > **[Swing State Survey: Majorities Favor Path to Citizenship over Mass...](https://publicconsultation.org/immigration/swing-state-survey-majorities-favor-path-to-citizenship-over-mass-deportation-while-strengthening-the-border/)** The crucial point remains: Democratic policies tend to have more public support, when the public hears them without partisan nonsense. You still don’t have a definition of “woke,” but given that this is what you’re now talking about in a thread about wokeness, I’m assuming you think the “path to citizenship” approach is woke? If so, Democrats won’t win by abandoning this popular proposal. They need to do something else. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/428 "2024-11-26T20:21:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They knew damn well that immigration and the border was a significant factor in Trump’s first election, so why didn’t they act? So, the dems should turn bigot and Xenophobe because the MAGAs are? > [@Irishman](#): > > The very first bill Biden proposed was to strengthen border security and reduce the asylum backlogs. It was rejected by the Republicans because it was too nice to the people already here. Yep. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No bill involving immigration is a “border security bill”, because immigration isn’t a _security_ problem in the first place. It’s a bigotry and labor exploitation problem. Exactly. You know what Border Security is? The Maginot Line. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/429 "2024-11-26T22:14:10Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > How do you know about this influence on Dem leaders – what are the examples of policy or rhetoric in the Democratic party? Okay, I looked at some right-wing articles to see what they are claiming as woke policies from Biden: An executive order in June 2021 calling for federal agencies to prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion in recruits and when considering promotions. > **[Executive Order on Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility in the...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/06/25/executive-order-on-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-accessibility-in-the-federal-workforce/)** > > By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including sections 1104, 3301, and 3302 of Allocating Covid recovery funds on the basis of race and gender: > **[Biden Is Prioritizing Billions Of COVID Funds By Race And Gender. Is That...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2021/05/11/biden-is-prioritizing-billions-of-covid-funds-by-race-and-gender-is-that-constitutional/)** > > Joe Biden’s COVID relief plan, the “American Rescue Plan,” is a sprawling program that allocates $1.9 Trillion for a broad variety of purposes. It is unusual not only in its size and scope, but because it allocates portions of that money on the basis... (Spoiler: it was not constitutional) > **[Federal judge halts loan forgiveness program for farmers of color](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/federal-judge-halts-loan-forgiveness-program-for-farmers-of-color/)** > > Minority farmers say they have been unfairly denied government assistance for decades. Opposing the lawsuit alleging that race-based affirmative action at Harvard and UNC was unconstitutional. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-administration-asks-us-supreme-court-reject-harvard-affirmative-action-2021-12-09/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-administration-asks-us-supreme-court-reject-harvard-affirmative-action-2021-12-09/) Reinstating Obama-era rules that remove due process for anyone accused on sexual assault or harassment on university campuses: > **[In new Title IX rules, Biden must not kick due process and free speech to the...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/title-ix-rules-biden-must-090002042.html)** > > A group of Democratic senators has asked the Biden administration to eliminate the presumption of innocence in college sexual harassment cases. There are a few more similar but I’m getting tired. > [@Mijin](#): > > Also: do you acknowledge that the Brexit campaign used the idea of “elitism” in their campaign, even though it was run by people who fit the mould of privileged elites better than anyone? Sure. And many of them were planning to turn London into Singapore-on-Thames or something, which was not at all what most Brexit voters wanted. But despite the hypocrisy, I think there was something to the charge. As far as my research could tell, the EU really did economically benefit skilled/higher social class workers far more than low skilled/lower social class ones, while the later bore the brunt of the social and structural problems from mass migration as usual. We get to pay less when we need a plumber or building work, they get lower wages and fewer opportunities. Illegal immigration in the US is similar: employers get cheap labour, poorer people see lower wages and more competition (probably the reason some Latino citizens are not big fans). > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The crucial point remains: Democratic policies tend to have more public support, when the public hears them without partisan nonsense. Pretty much everyone I have seen agrees that the border was a major reason Harris lost the election. Whatever they say in surveys, Americans are clearly unhappy with the current results. 🤷‍♀️ > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m assuming you think the “path to citizenship” approach is woke? Not in itself. This is woke: > [@DrDeth](#): > > So, the dems should turn bigot and Xenophobe because the MAGAs are? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No bill involving immigration is a “border security bill”, because immigration isn’t a _security_ problem in the first place. It’s a bigotry and labor exploitation problem. Accusing people of xenophobia or bigotry for wanting to be able to decide who moves to their country and in what numbers is very woke. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/430 "2024-11-26T22:28:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Illegal immigration in the US is similar: employers get cheap labour, poorer people see lower wages and more competition (probably the reason some Latino citizens are not big fans). Except they don’t get “lower wages and more competition”, because undocumented workers do jobs that Americans _won’t._ And they “aren’t fans” because they are hypocrites, bigots and/or self destructive fools who don’t think the leopards will eat _their_ faces. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Accusing people of xenophobia or bigotry for wanting to be able to decide who moves to their country and in what numbers is very woke. You are moving the goalposts; deciding “who moves to their country and in what numbers” is not a _security_ issue. _Thinking_ that it is, _is_ xenophobia and bigotry. It’s buying into all the ranting about “Mexican rapists” and the “Great Replacement”. We are the ones exploiting them, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/431 "2024-11-26T22:34:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are moving the goalposts; deciding “who moves to their country and in what numbers” is not a _security_ issue. If you don’t enforce it then **you are not actually deciding**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=22)