# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/452 "2024-11-27T09:53:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > They knew damn well that immigration and the border was a significant factor in Trump’s first election, so why didn’t they act? > > So, the dems should turn bigot and Xenophobe because the MAGAs are? @DrDeth, I wrote a comment saying Biden had successfully reduced border encounters this year using Executive Orders, and that the Democrats could have tried to pass a bipartisan border bill early in Biden’s term rather than waiting till near the end, and then made the comment above. Did you mean to say that Biden’s recent EOs and/or the failed border bill are bigoted and xenophobic? Or that wanting to reduce the flow of migrants over the border is bigoted and xenophobic? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/453 "2024-11-27T10:10:30Z")
(once again catching up a bit with old posts, but I’ve finished travelling now) > [@DemonTree](#): > > Biden’s ‘post Covid surge’ is bigger than any time during Trump’s presidency, most of which was pre-Covid - and numbers stayed that way right into 2024. Two things: Firstly, I think you’ve misunderstood something here. The point is that, due to covid, emergency measures were put in place to e.g. summarily expel migrants and the border was easier to police with non-essential travel also blocked. Nobody envisioned those provisions lasting forever, for various practical and legal reasons. And when Biden ended the emergency measures there was a big spike after the two years or so that title 42 had been in place. Secondly, we’re supposed to be discussing “woke policies”. No-one is disputing that border crossings were a real issue in this administration. So where’s the woke? Apart from separating children from their parents, what was different about Biden’s policies to Trump’s pre-pandemic? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Why didn’t the Dems try to pass the border bill years ago, when the Republicans probably wouldn’t have blocked it, or if they had there would have been years to put the blame on them? What are you basing that on? I see no reason to think that republicans would have been good faith actors if only the bill had been brought sooner. I mean, what is the good faith reason for them blocking this bill? In terms of the time it took, sure, that’s a legit criticism. I will say though that it took time to negotiate the bill, so the talking point of it being a last minute-pre-election thing is bogus, it was more than a year before that in the making (and only 4 days for republicans to completely flip their views on it). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/454 "2024-11-27T10:27:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But despite the hypocrisy, I think there was something to the charge [of euro supporters being snobbish / superior about brexit supporters]. Well, we’re waiting…I note that nothing in the remainder of your post supports the claim of snobbishness, only a goalpost shift to the idea that EU membership benefited higher paid workers more… > [@](#): > > As far as my research could tell, the EU really did economically benefit skilled/higher social class workers far more than low skilled/lower social class ones, while the later bore the brunt of the social and structural problems from mass migration as usual. We get to pay less when we need a plumber or building work, they get lower wages and fewer opportunities. It may have benefit some workers more than others, but we’re basically \*all\* worse off now. Not even the brexit proponents pretend otherwise at this point. They just try to claim that the _wrong kind_ of brexit was implemented. Actually that’s not entirely true. On GB News to defend Brexit they might tout that UK exports are technically up right now; usually neglecting to mention that this is largely down to an increase in the price of gold, for which the UK is one of the world’s biggest traders, and looks substantially different with gold out of the picture. So I guess there is a way that Joe the plumber has benefited from Brexit, what with his substantial portfolio in the commodities markets. > [@](#): > > Illegal immigration in the US is similar: employers get cheap labour, poorer people see lower wages and more competition (probably the reason some Latino citizens are not big fans). As others have pointed out, this isn’t what has happened. US unemployment is at record lows, and not only have wages beaten inflation but the higher percent gains have been seen at the lower income levels. Not disputing that illegal crossings are not an issue, but let’s try to stick to reality. Additionally, we can see how much of it was just stoking up fear and hate by the fact that republicans repeatedly referred to the Haitian immigrants as “illegals”. It was code for brown people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/455 "2024-11-27T10:49:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > @Der_Trihs, I interpreted this as meaning you support open borders, and believe anyone who opposes immigration is a bigot. Am I correct, and if not, what were you trying to say? I do support mostly open borders, outside of disease carriers, criminals and the like. _Actually_ dangerous people. Immigration is a benefit, not a problem. Nearly a necessity, in fact. And I don’t think “anyone who opposes immigration is a bigot”. Most are but not all I think (not that the profit motive and poor judgement is all that moral either). And that most of the time it’s just race war, with “immigrant” as code for “brown”. I think that characterizing it as a “security issue” and immigrants as “dangerous” _is_ bigoted, however. I also consider it bigoted to pretend that they are somehow harming the US instead of the ones being exploited. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/456 "2024-11-27T12:31:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think that characterizing it as a “security issue” and immigrants as “dangerous” _is_ bigoted, however. I also consider it bigoted to pretend that they are somehow harming the US instead of the ones being exploited. Did you think I meant to imply illegal immigrants are dangerous by saying 'border security bill? I was trying to distinguish between a bill aimed mostly at policing the border/directly deterring entry with one mostly focused on illegal immigrants already living in the US (eg by providing paths to citizenship). So I thought you meant wanting the border policed _at all_ was bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/457 "2024-11-27T12:45:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Immigration is a benefit, not a problem. Exactly. I’ll suggest that it is certainly possible to have too much of a good thing, and unbounded immigration is going to be too much. Immigration needs to be managed. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Did you think I meant to imply illegal immigrants are dangerous by saying 'border security bill? You may not have meant to, but many people using that phrase mean to. The word _security_ primarily means freedom or protection from danger. Pounding on the idea of Border Security is a way to shift people’s internal feelings about the issue, to repeat over and over that immigration management is the same thing as protecting Americans from danger. Republicans have pursued the narrative that immigrants are poisoning the country, stealing our jobs, our money, and committing crimes. There’s an awful lot of discussion to be had about immigration and border crossings without supporting these dangerous ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/458 "2024-11-27T13:01:40Z")
…can we clarify: what is the woke thing we are discussing regarding the border? Because neither Trump or Biden had woke border policies. So there was nothing to tone down. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/459 "2024-11-27T13:08:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You may not have meant to, but many people using that phrase mean to. The word _security_ primarily means freedom or protection from danger. Pounding on the idea of Border Security is a way to shift people’s internal feelings about the issue, to repeat over and over that immigration management is the same thing as protecting Americans from danger. I can’t keep up with these shibboleths. Kamala Harris herself was calling it a border security bill! It’s wild to make these assumptions because someone uses the same language as major newspapers and networks. And even if a person is using a certain term because that’s what they’re familiar with from conservative news, it doesn’t mean they have fully bought into whatever propaganda point is supposedly being pushed. > **[Harris vows to resurrect bipartisan border bill Trump opposed | CNN Politics](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/27/politics/video/kamala-harris-douglas-arizona-immigration-bill-trump-digvid)** > > During a speech in Douglas, Arizona, Vice President Kamala Harris vowed to resurrect a bipartisan border security bill that she says was “tanked” by Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/460 "2024-11-27T13:09:45Z")
I don’t think the Democrats lost by being too woke. I don’t think the campaign was very “woke” at all. Harris learned into being a moderate. I think the Democrats lost for three major reasons: 1. The economy. A lot of people were hurt by inflation. Doesn’t matter that inflation had ended, prices were still high. And while some people’s wages kept up, others didn’t. 2. Racism. “They are eating the dogs” is about inspiring fear of brown people. 3. The Republicans lied their asses off, and the Democrats didn’t figure out how to combat that. I talked with an assessment Trump supporter who raged against Biden’s immigration policy. I mentioned the bipartisan bill to actually fund border control, that Trump killed. She replied, “i don’t believe you.” Right, he won on that. And not due to “excessive wokeness”. Also, it hurt that Harris was a woman (and a Black woman.) she underperformed most of the down-ballot Democrats. I don’t think that’s because her campaign was bad, it she’s bad, or Trump is super-appealing compared to all the other Republicans. I’m think it’s because many are reluctant to vote for a woman for executive. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/461 "2024-11-27T13:16:18Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I can’t keep up with these shibboleths. Thankfully, our next president said > [@](#): > > The Democrats say, ‘Please don’t call them animals. They’re humans.’ I said, 'No, they’re not humans, they’re not humans, they’re animals so it should be easier for you to keep up in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/462 "2024-11-27T13:26:04Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > My pronouns are he/him. Nobody cares what’s in my pants. I’m sorry to hear that. I’m sure you’ll meet someone someday. (I kid, I kid…) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/463 "2024-11-27T13:51:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I do support mostly open borders, outside of disease carriers, criminals and the like. How do you determine if they’re a criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/464 "2024-11-27T13:54:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I can’t keep up with these shibboleths. Kamala Harris herself was calling it a border security bill! It’s wild to make these assumptions because someone uses the same language as major newspapers and networks. The fact that so many people including their nominal opponents let the Republicans define the narrative and the language used is one of the _reasons_ the Republicans have such an advantage. And most of the “major newspapers and networks” lean strongly Right, given that they are owned by giant corporations and rightwingers, so _of course_ they talk like that. They want the public to think of brown people as enemies who should be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/465 "2024-11-27T13:55:04Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > How do you determine if they’re a criminal? Going into details on this seems pretty far afield–but checking criminal records in an origin country doesn’t seem beyond the reach of a government. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/466 "2024-11-27T13:55:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m think it’s because many are reluctant to vote for a woman for executive. I’m curious why you think this. There are quite a few states that have or had female governors aren’t there? Why would voting for a president be different? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/467 "2024-11-27T13:55:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Kamala Harris herself was calling it a border security bill! Exactly: Democrats are pretty goddamn far from “woke” in any sense. They’re using the language of conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/468 "2024-11-27T14:04:32Z")
Because what’s different about Harris than the downballot Dems who won is her gender. Because i spent two weeks canvassing, and spoke to an awful lot of voters, and they told me they wanted to vote for “someone strong”. Because it’s a freaking obvious thing that pops up pretty much everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/469 "2024-11-27T14:08:09Z")
A gay black man could win the race for mayor here in Philly. He would have no chance of becoming governor due to the fact that outside a few big cities Pennsylvania is very conservative. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/470 "2024-11-27T14:10:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Exactly: Democrats are pretty goddamn far from “woke” in any sense. They’re using the language of conservatives. If Democrats are using it then it’s hardly the language of conservatives! This stuff is crazy-making. People use the words they’ve heard before; if you’re going to judge their beliefs just from that then you’re pretty much precluding any better understanding. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/471 "2024-11-27T14:16:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because what’s different about Harris than the downballot Dems who won is her gender. And the fact she only had a short time to campaign, and the fact she wasn’t chosen but was made candidate out of necessity after doing relatively badly in the primary in 2020, which suggests she isn’t personally very popular. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because i spent two weeks canvassing, and spoke to an awful lot of voters, and they told me they wanted to vote for “someone strong”. There’s something to that. Both Thatcher and Merkel were definitely seen as strong. Maybe this is a bigger deal for female candidates, but it doesn’t mean no woman can win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=24)