# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/472 "2024-11-27T14:17:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If Democrats are using it then it’s hardly the language of conservatives! Of course it is, the Democrats (besides generally being pretty conservative themselves) regularly let the Right define the terms of the argument. It’s one reason they tend to lose. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/473 "2024-11-27T14:28:11Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > it doesn’t mean no woman can win. And i never said that, and never meant to imply it. In fact, i wonder if Harris could have won if she’d run on “hope and change” instead of on “incumbency”. I listed inflation first for a reason. But i do think it’s one of the top vote-losing issues of her candidacy. And i don’t think, “she’s too woke” was one of the to reasons. I think, “the Republicans lied, and claimed she is extremely woke” _is_ one of the top reasons. See > [@puzzlegal](#): > > The Republicans lied their asses off, and the Democrats didn’t figure out how to combat that. I talked with an assessment Trump supporter who raged against Biden’s immigration policy. I mentioned the bipartisan bill to actually fund border control, that Trump killed. She replied, “i don’t believe you.” Right, he won on that. And not due to “excessive wokeness”. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/474 "2024-11-27T14:30:38Z")
Clearly “woke” is not the language of conservatives, if it was they’d be able to define the word. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/475 "2024-11-27T14:43:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I do support mostly open borders, outside of disease carriers, criminals and the like. _Actually_ dangerous people. Immigration is a benefit, not a problem. **Nearly** a necessity, in fact. The only quibble I have is with the word I bolded. It is absolutely a necessity. I often ask anti-immigrant people of a certain age if they’d like to count on their Social Security payments. Because they may not be able to without a steady and large influx of immigrants. Our domestic reproduction rate is simply not enough to keep it running. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/476 "2024-11-27T14:51:30Z")
Most conservatives are not against legal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/477 "2024-11-27T14:52:12Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I often ask anti-immigrant people of a certain age if they’d like to count on their Social Security payments. Because they may not be able to without a steady and large influx of immigrants. Our domestic reproduction rate is simply not enough to keep it running. Yes. Japan demonstrates what it looks like for the demographics when a low-birthrate nation refuses to make up the birth deficit with immigration. And even ignoring the demographics issue, it’s an assumption built into the budgeting that there will be billions of dollars from undocumented immigrants paying into SS who will never get any benefits from it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/478 "2024-11-27T14:57:57Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Clearly “woke” is not the language of conservatives, if it was they’d be able to define the word. That’s just the most beautiful part about woke. It means exactly what you want it to mean no matter the situation. "When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’" ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/479 "2024-11-27T14:58:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If Democrats are using it then it’s hardly the language of conservatives! That is simply untrue. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/480 "2024-11-27T15:06:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it is, the Democrats (besides generally being pretty conservative themselves) regularly let the Right define the terms of the argument. It’s one reason they tend to lose. My point is that if Democrats are also using this language, it’s hardly reasonable to assume that using it implies a whole bunch of other beliefs. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And i never said that, and never meant to imply it. In fact, i wonder if Harris could have won if she’d run on “hope and change” instead of on “incumbency”. I listed inflation first for a reason. I suspect that would have helped. She’d still have had an uphill struggle, though. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But i do think it’s one of the top vote-losing issues of her candidacy. And i don’t think, “she’s too woke” was one of the to reasons. I think, “the Republicans lied, and claimed she is extremely woke” _is_ one of the top reasons. I don’t know what Kamala personally believes, and if I were American I would have voted for her because the alternative was Trump, but I 100% think she would have governed in a ‘woke’ way and institutionalised Social Justice ideas to a greater extent than Biden did. It’s obvious the move to the centre in her campaign was just to attract voters, there’s no conviction there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/481 "2024-11-27T15:18:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I 100% think she would have governed in a ‘woke’ way I don’t know what this means. I am not sure you do, either. The only definition you have offered so far of “woke” has to do with calling people xenophobes for supporting immigration law, which is a borderline nonexistent phenomenon. Do you mean that Harris would have done that? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/482 "2024-11-27T15:20:42Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Most conservatives are not against legal immigration. You sure about that? Remember that 1) asylum seekers are legal and yet Republican governors actively persecute them, and 2) under the Trump administration legal avenues for immigration from the countries to the south were pretty much all shut down. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/483 "2024-11-27T15:21:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > That’s just the most beautiful part about woke. It means exactly what you want it to mean no matter the situation. I am reminded of the Smurfs and the use of the word “smurf” to mean anything. I will now have Smurfs running through my head all day- and the themesong will be my earworm. I blame you for this! Go smurf yourself! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/484 "2024-11-27T15:25:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > > > Most conservatives are not against legal immigration. > > You sure about that? Remember that 1) asylum seekers are legal and yet Republican governors actively persecute them, and 2) under the Trump administration legal avenues for immigration from the countries to the south were pretty much all shut down Also 3) How many times were the Haitian migrants referred to as “illegals” by republicans? Or, for those with a bit more subtlety, contrasted against the “residents”, as if they weren’t residents themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/485 "2024-11-27T15:28:20Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Most conservatives are not against legal immigration. This is true, but with one big caveat. All of the conservatives I know only want immigration from Europe and immigrants with clear European heritage. One of my colleagues is extremely opposed to allowing more immigrants from Africa or South America, even through legal channels. They are also ok with immigrants from Japan or Korea. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/486 "2024-11-27T15:38:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If Democrats are using it then it’s hardly the language of conservatives! This stuff is crazy-making. Are you alluding to some new partisan linguistic barrier that isn’t _at all_ permeable? If so, then would that also imply that no Democrat _ever_ refers to the AHCA as “Obamacare” or to the Democratic Party as the “Democrat Party?” I’m skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/487 "2024-11-27T16:10:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not what’s happening, but I’ll accept that if someone accused someone else of bigotry _specifically for that_ it would be woke. Okay, I’ve now established that in the second case, the accusation of bigotry was because I used a particular term to describe a bill that was also used by Kamala Harris and by left-wing newspapers. Such accusations are a standard part of the woke playbook: claim all opposition to your goals or policies is bigotry or motivated by bigotry, and you can delegitimise and silence it. Define people’s feelings as irrational and you can invalidate them. However, most people have caught on by now and it’s increasingly ineffective. Unfortunately, it has also robbed such accusations of their sting, and real racism, sexism etc are increasingly openly expressed. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/488 "2024-11-27T16:17:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Okay, I’ve now established that in the second case, the accusation of bigotry was because I used a particular term to describe a bill that was also used by Kamala Harris and by left-wing newspapers. > > Such accusations are a standard part of the woke playbook: claim all opposition to your goals or policies is bigotry or motivated by bigotry, and you can delegitimise and silence it. Define people’s feelings as irrational and you can invalidate them. Right wing views _are_ bigoted and irrational; that’s the point. Remove bigotry and irrationality and you remove the majority of the right wing worldview, about all that’s left is plutocracy. And Kamala Harris isn’t “woke”, and left wing newspapers (like everything else left wing) are extremely rare. That’s just another example of letting the Right define the argument. And referring to immigrants in a way that portrays them as a threat to be stopped (presumably by killing them) _is_ xenophobic no matter who uses it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/489 "2024-11-27T16:20:38Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Okay, I’ve now established that in the second case, the accusation of bigotry was because I used a particular term to describe a bill that was also used by Kamala Harris and by left-wing newspapers. No you have not. What a ridiculous claim. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/490 "2024-11-27T16:23:15Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Such accusations are a standard part of the woke playbook: claim all opposition to your goals or policies is bigotry or motivated by bigotry, and you can delegitimise and silence it. Define people’s feelings as irrational and you can invalidate them. > > However, most people have caught on by now and it’s increasingly ineffective. Unfortunately, it has also robbed such accusations of their sting, and real racism, sexism etc are increasingly openly expressed. ☹ Such rationalizations are a standard part of the bigotry playbook: claim that because _some_ accusations of bigotry are without merit, _all_ must be. Then you can claim all opposition to your goals or policies is wokeism or motivated by wokeism, and you can delegitimise and silence it. Define people’s arguments as irrational and you can pretend to win your debates with them. However. most people have caught on by now, and it’s increasingly ineffective. Unfortunately it has also robbed such accusations of their sting, and real racism, sexism, etc are being increasingly called out, much to the chagrin of those expressing them. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/491 "2024-11-27T16:24:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Unfortunately it has also robbed such accusations of their sting, and real racism, sexism, etc are being increasingly called out, much to the chagrin of those expressing Yes, very clever, except that doesn’t actually describe the world we’re living in, does it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=25)