# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/492 "2024-11-27T16:26:05Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Most conservatives are not against legal immigration. Ah, that’s good to know. So, we can stop ignoring the statistical reality and get rid of all the bullshit barriers and quotas, and encourage immigration, since the current rate of legal immigration is insufficient. After all, what is illegal today needn’t remain so, not when that policy is idiotic self-harm. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/493 "2024-11-27T16:26:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, very clever, except that doesn’t actually describe the world we’re living in, does it? It certainly adheres more closely to reality than your screed does. Indeed, as your screed proves. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/494 "2024-11-27T17:26:53Z")
This is all getting way too twilight zone, I need a break. @Mijin, I’ll try and reply to you on Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/495 "2024-11-27T17:31:26Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > This is all getting way too twilight zone, I need a break. I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/496 "2024-11-27T17:38:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > This is all getting way too twilight zone, I need a break. What in the nine hells does “way too twilight zone” mean? I find this even more confusing and nebulous than the use of the word “woke”. Very shortly, my replies may be delayed because my lunch break is ending and I may be stuck on a call. See how that works? I have posted many times that I work in a virtual call center 8:30-5 Monday through Friday. I stated a clear, believable reason backed by my previous posts. You OTOH have said things are “way too twilight zone”- a phrase you have not defined and a position you have not backed up with anything. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/497 "2024-11-27T17:41:57Z")
Whatever the answer to that question is, it lives in stark opposition to **[Brandolini’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law)**. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/498 "2024-11-27T18:21:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > It is taking a step to help normalize the idea that not everyone goes by “default”. Either that, or it’s the demand by a shrill militant minority to force _their_ narrative upon the bulk of society. Now that’s their business; but when they insist that everyone who won’t get with the program is to be scorned, mocked, derided, cancelled, ostracized, shunned, _ **punished** _ for refusing to do so– well, that’s when you’re going to get pushback like electing Trump as president. You hate conservatives for their bigotry? Fine; they’ll hate you back. At that point the only question will be who has the power to win and to tell the other side to go \*\*\*\* themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/499 "2024-11-27T18:42:22Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > but when they insist that everyone who won’t get with the program is to be scorned, mocked, derided, cancelled, ostracized, shunned, _ **punished** _ for refusing to do so– well, that’s when you’re going to get pushback like electing Trump as president We were talking about the pronoun thing though, right? Has anyone _had_ any of those verbs happen to them for not putting their pronouns? The only scorn, mockery etc that I see is from conservatives, whose moral panic of the day is trans, and so are fiercely critical of anyone that puts their pronouns, will refuse to acknowledge their choice and have made pronouns a key part of rabble rousing speeches. I mean, let me be frank here: I don’t give a shit about trans. Dave is now Davina? Sure, whatever, nothing to do with me. The reason this is an issue, is because of those trying to demonize trans, in some cases literally, and creating a moral panic by adding claims of pedophilia, recess sex change ops, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/500 "2024-11-27T18:47:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Now that’s their business; but when they insist that everyone who won’t get with the program is to be scorned, mocked, derided, cancelled, ostracized, shunned, _ **punished** _ for refusing to do so Can you provide evidence that thus happens on a broad scale as you claim? Or evidence that it happens at all? I, and other woke folks, can quickly provide evidence of repeated yet baseless reports that Haitian immigrants were kiiling and eating pets, the clip of Trump saying of a clash between neo Nazis and counter protesters "Good people on both sides:. We can easily link to official Trump-endorsed ads dripping witth prejudice against trans folks or immigrants. What have you got? ETA I do not HATE Trump voters for their prejudice and ignorance. I do pity them. But, not to their faces. I dearly hope they can be educated out of hatred and ignorance and we can work together to build a better America and a better world. ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/501 "2024-11-27T18:50:07Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > This is true, but with one big caveat. All of the conservatives I know only want immigration from Europe and immigrants with clear European heritage. One of my colleagues is extremely opposed to allowing more immigrants from Africa or South America, even through legal channels. Truth. See “countries, shithole.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/502 "2024-11-27T18:51:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > We were talking about the pronoun thing though, right? Really, we’re talking about all minority groups because this, _the demand by a shrill militant minority to force their narrative upon the bulk of society. Now that’s their business; but when they insist that everyone who won’t get with the program is to be scorned, mocked, derided, cancelled, ostracized, shunned, punished for refusing to do so– well, that’s when you’re going to get pushback_ works as well in, say, 1964 as it does in 2024. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/503 "2024-11-27T18:52:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You hate conservatives for their bigotry? Fine; they’ll hate you back. So bigots will hate us for hating them for hating us? Ooooookay… [![](https://preview.redd.it/destiny-encouraging-his-viewers-to-brigade-and-harass-v0-ye0vtyyn8c3e1.jpeg?width=601&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6ecd243e139756fa8aef74262d1c0b4a23df876) ](https://preview.redd.it/destiny-encouraging-his-viewers-to-brigade-and-harass-v0-ye0vtyyn8c3e1.jpeg?width=601&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6ecd243e139756fa8aef74262d1c0b4a23df876) > [@Mijin](#): > > Has anyone _had_ any of those verbs happen to them for not putting their pronouns? Being held accountable - or even just being forced to hear other views - counts as being “punished” in some people’s eyes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/504 "2024-11-27T19:18:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Or what? > [@DemonTree](#): > > They knew damn well that immigration and the border was a significant factor in Trump’s first election, so why didn’t they act? I was replying to _this_ sentence, strangely. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > The economy. A lot of people were hurt by inflation. Doesn’t matter that inflation had ended, prices were still high. Exit polls, etc show this was the #1 reason. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/505 "2024-11-27T19:19:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Either that, or it’s the demand by a shrill militant minority to force _their_ narrative upon the bulk of society. Exactly how it was with same-sex marriage, amirite? When California legalized it, my wife and I were _forced_ to divorce, and to each take same-sex partners. She married a lovely woman she knew from the gym, while I simply married a “rough trick named Jim.” The four of us have been ecstatically happy together, despite our initial reservations. :rolleyes: ETA: “At the end of the day, I’d rather be _excluded_ for who I _included_ than _included_ for who I _excluded_.” –Reverend Eston Williams Amen, Rev. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/506 "2024-11-27T19:32:06Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Exactly how it was with same-sex marriage, amirite? When California legalized it, my wife and I were _forced_ to divorce, and to each take same-sex partners. > > She married a lovely woman she knew from the gym, while I simply married a “rough trick named Jim.” > > The four of us have been ecstatically happy together, despite our initial reservations. Count yourself, or your siblings, lucky, > [@What could the Harris campaign have done differently?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-harris-campaign-have-done-differently/1009798/325): > > The Democrats have followed the strategy of championing oppressed minorities, focusing on ever tinier and more aberrant fringe groups, to the point of diminishing returns. First African-Americans, then women, then gays, and now various flavors of non-binaries. I’m not sure there’s anywhere left to go except for maybe incest practitioners. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/507 "2024-11-27T19:54:23Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Now that’s their business; but when they insist that everyone who won’t get with the program is to be scorned, mocked, derided, cancelled, ostracized, shunned, _ **punished** _ for refusing to do so > > Can you provide evidence that thus happens on a broad scale as you claim? Or evidence that it happens at all? I, for one, don’t believe it. I travel in trans circles. I don’t open with my pronouns (for reasons i have shared with trans friends, who are still my friends.) And while I do, indeed, attempt to use the pronouns shared by others, i make a lot of mistakes. Fewer than i used to, I’m getting better at this. But I’ve made a LOT of mistakes. And yet, i still travel in trans circles and have many trans, non-binary, and gender-non-conforming friends. I’ve not been punished in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/508 "2024-11-27T20:04:24Z")
The only time I have heard people comment on pronouns is people who are triggered by them. People put their pronouns in their email signature and boom, they will cop flak from the anti-woke brigade. The same people who react to the following part of a new employee introduction: “Steve lives in Tewksbury with his husband Alan, their sons, David and Oliver and their Newfoundland Retriever, Bear. with, “I don’t have any problem with their sexual preference as long as they keep it in their bedroom and don’t parade it around.” But they aren’t offended by: “Stefanie lives in Marblehead with her husband Alan…” ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/509 "2024-11-27T20:14:32Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1011921/4): > > The left is ridiculed for quasi-academic nonsensical statements like “I told you. We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune” And > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1011921/4): > > So my interpretation of the original post was….maybe lay off the “anarcho-syndicalist commune” crap. Ok. I’m curious, though, what in the context of modern social and political issues are the quasi-academic nonsensical statements that we should be laying off. > [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No bill involving immigration is a “border security bill”, because immigration isn’t a _security_ problem in the first place. It’s a bigotry and labor exploitation problem. > > @Der_Trihs, I interpreted this as meaning you support open borders, and believe anyone who opposes immigration is a bigot. Am I correct, and if not, what were you trying to say? Let me take a stab at it. This is me, not @Der\_Trih. There are legitimate border security issues. The flow of drugs, especially fentanyl, creates real risk to American lives. Drug cartel members passing back and forth in furtherance of their criminal enterprise is an issue. So is the traffic in guns crossing the border, though those are typically going the other direction. What is not a security issue is immigrants, asylum seekers and others looking for a better life. That is an immigration policy issue. There is some concern over a porous, open border, in that it does not allow scrutiny of who is entering, and makes immigration law enforcement more challenging. Not screening for terrorists is concerning. Enforcement of immigration laws is hampered by a shortage of courts to handle the volume of asylum cases we are seeing. Changes in policy and in court access would fix much of the problem. The problem with the people opposed to immigration is they tend to be opposed to brown immigrants, but not white ones. That is racism and xenophobia. If they are just as opposed to any more damn Canadians coming and taking all those Hollywood and rock star jobs, then they aren’t selecting who comes in by ethnic background. But all the attention is on Central and South Americans, nobody is complaining about, say, Eastern Europeans fleeing Russian expansion. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/510 "2024-11-27T20:22:49Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > But all the attention is on Central and South Americans, nobody is complaining about, say, Eastern Europeans fleeing Russian expansion. The loudest anti-immigrant bigot in our neck of the woods is a Russian immigrant. An anti-communist pro-Putin Russian immigrant. She ran for a state legislature seat and lost. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/511 "2024-11-27T20:27:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m think it’s because many are reluctant to vote for a woman for executive. At the risk of derailing the thread, there are numerous nations that are arguably **more** sexist than the USA - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, Mexico etc. - that have already had a woman as their national leader. The gender factor does not play a major role in 2016 or 2024, IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=26)