# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/608 "2024-11-29T22:12:15Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Given that it’s a century old I’m doubting it. Definitely not the way the right is using it these days. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/609 "2024-11-29T22:12:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The happy “non-woke” solution is…? As they’ve told us, extermination. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/610 "2024-11-29T22:14:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > No. Cruelty is the intentional infliction of suffering. The fact you think it justified does not make it better. The Inquisition thought the suffering they inflicted was justified. Religions that shun members who stop believing think it justified. More prosaically, the kids who bullied me at school thought it was justified too - I was weird and awkward and couldn’t ‘read the room’ (still can’t). They weren’t monsters - they are ordinary people with jobs and families now - but I’m never going to be friends with them and I’ll be damned if I join in with anything similar. I’m sorry that your innate differences made you the target of somebody else’s cruelty, intolerance, ignorance, and indecency. Truly, I am. I appreciate that you’re now willing to advocate for treating vulnerable populations better than _you_ were treated. But there’s a standard much higher than that. And if somebody had ‘called out’ the people who were bullying _you,_ wouldn’t your life have been easier? And if/when it’s done on a large scale, doesn’t life get steadily better for everybody? It’s a positive sum game. Intolerant people treating others with a basic level of civility, decency, humanity and respect costs them nothing. We all win. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/611 "2024-11-29T22:15:47Z")
Personally, I am rather burnt out on "What the other side says"ism, and would like one of those in this thread advocating for people to be less “woke” answer this. What is the compromise they are looking for in this case? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/612 "2024-11-29T22:16:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What we have lost is the option to have a principled objection to progressive ideas. Which progressive ideas? I think we can still have principled disagreements as to how progressive taxation ought to be, or whether single-payer universal healthcare is the best option. I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could say, “i think Black men are predators and shouldn’t date white women” or “i think gay men are predators and shouldn’t teach children” or “i think trans women are predators and shouldn’t be allowed to use the ladies room” and still been accepted in progressive circles. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/613 "2024-11-29T22:18:02Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Which progressive ideas? And what principles? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/614 "2024-11-29T22:18:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Given that it’s a century old I’m doubting it. But it never achieved much prominence until the Right started using it as a bash word; once they pick another I expect it’ll fade into obscurity again. And possibly fade entirely now that it’s got their reputation stuck to it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/615 "2024-11-29T22:31:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t, i think Biden is significantly more liberal on most axes than Harris. But it doesn’t matter. The Republicans claimed she was running on a woke agenda. And she wasn’t. She was running on a boring moderate Democratic agenda. This thread suggests we are all being “too woke”, without even saying what that means. Most of her governing would have been boring bread and butter stuff, too. Because what even _is_ the “woke agenda”? Is it like the gay agenda? (Same sex marriage, don’t fire an employee just because they are gay… Um, I’ve run out of items.) Do you really not know? In a nutshell, the woke agenda as understood by conservatives - and probably a bunch of moderates too - means discriminating against the majority in favour of minorities. Google up the wheel of oppression: anyone in a group labelled ‘privileged’ gets shafted, anyone in a group labeled ‘oppressed’ gets coddled. The last shall be first and the first last. Yes, that means your treatment can turn on a dime depending on who the other person in the equation is. See Ana Kasparian’s experience after being sexually assaulted by a homeless man, for example: > **[The Harrowing Reason Why This Progressive Host Left the Dems](https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2024/10/14/anna-kasparian-explains-what-caused-her-to-leave-the-dems-n2646154)** > >   I’m probably going to get a bunch of replies saying that this isn’t happening, and/or that it’s right and good that it’s happening ( **please** don’t bother), but this is what plenty of people believe. It’s what I believe. I can tell you why many progressives want to discriminate in favour of these disadvantaged groups if you like, because I’ve heard it all before. I just don’t agree with it. I think treating people equally is the best and fairest policy, for a variety of reasons that are ~~too long to fit in the margin~~ outside the scope of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/616 "2024-11-29T22:38:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > the woke agenda as understood by conservatives Correct, as they understand it- not as it actually is. > [@DemonTree](#): > > but this is what plenty of people believe. It’s what I believe. Yes, they believe it. Yes, you believe i. None of this is proof that it is actually so. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/617 "2024-11-29T22:39:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m probably going to get a bunch of replies saying that this isn’t happening, and/or that it’s right and good that it’s happening ( **please** don’t bother), but this is what plenty of people believe. It’s what I believe. “I know what I’m posting is rubbish. Please don’t point it out.” Is not a winning strategy in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/618 "2024-11-29T22:39:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I think treating people equally is the best and fairest policy, for a variety of reasons that are ~~too long to fit in the margin~~ outside the scope of this thread. But if and when that doesn’t happen – say, for centuries – is it _really_ just, fair, and right to declare that “we’re all good, now?” Even when we aren’t? The deficits that marginalized people go through life with build upon the deficits foisted on _their ancestors._ Somebody (in this case, you) declaring that … that’s all behind us now … doesn’t seem to actually achieve that end, _nor_ does it seem to create anything even remotely approaching fairness, equality, or justice. If I stop beating you to a pulp, can I then declare that you should get over it, move on, and put on your big boy pants and get on with it? Did the US election of Barack Obama to President, or the featuring of Bill Cosby as a physician in a TV sitcom _really_ mark the end of US discrimination?? I’d argue … not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/619 "2024-11-29T22:39:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > In a nutshell, the woke agenda as understood by conservatives - and probably a bunch of moderates too - means discriminating against the majority in favour of minorities. Deliberately misunderstood, that is, and if _anything_ can be thought of as a “sin” by non-believers, it is _deliberate misunderstanding._ ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/620 "2024-11-29T22:42:17Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > “I know what I’m posting is rubbish. Please don’t point it out.” Is not a winning strategy in a debate. I wrote this post to explain what the ‘woke agenda’ is, as generally understood (IMHO, naturally). You don’t have to agree with it, and I am not interested in debating its accuracy in this thread. Capiche? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/621 "2024-11-29T22:47:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I wrote this post to explain what the ‘woke agenda’ is, as generally understood (IMHO, naturally). “…as generally understood (maybe) by conservatives who oppose it, because they have been fed a toxic mischaracterization of it.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/622 "2024-11-29T22:47:33Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You don’t have to agree with it, and I am not interested in debating its accuracy in this thread. Capiche? Definitely the wrong forum for that, then. Whoopsy! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/623 "2024-11-29T22:50:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Definitely the wrong forum for that, then. Yet another example of progressives discriminating in favor of disadvantaged groups! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/624 "2024-11-29T22:52:19Z")
Fwiw, i grew up with, i dunno, some earlier wave of feminism, that taught that we can all be whoever we want to be whatever our bodies look like. And except in cases where people feel strongly that their bodies are wrong, I’m not convinced that the current approach to gender is a better answer. That is, it’s not clear to me that asking people to pick “male” or “non-binary” to be respected at work is better than asking everyone else to respect women. (To paint with an intentionally broad and imperfect brush.) But i also know that i don’t understand what’s going on in other people’s heads. And that being accepted as a woman matters a lot to some very obviously feminine people that i know. So, ya know, i try to use the names and pronouns that people indicate they want me to use. Mostly just because I’m not an asshole. I honestly think that 90% of being “woke” is not being an asshole. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Do you really not know? In a nutshell, the woke agenda as understood by conservatives - and probably a bunch of moderates too - means discriminating against the majority in favour of minorities. Yeah… no. I believe that’s what conservatives think the “woke agenda” is. I don’t believe that’s actually the agenda of any coherent political body in the US. Can’t really speak for outside the US. So, okay, if that’s what you are starting from, sure, let’s not do that. That’s easy, as we already aren’t doing that… So, moving on. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/625 "2024-11-29T23:13:16Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > In a nutshell, the woke agenda as understood by conservatives - and probably a bunch of moderates too - means discriminating against the majority in favour of minorities. Which is wrong, as stated. Among other things, they _aren’t_ the majority; just the most powerful minority. The majority of people are _not,_ in fact straight right-wing white Christian adult males. The majority of people by far are the people the right wingers hate and want to persecute. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/626 "2024-11-29T23:19:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Fwiw, i grew up with, i dunno, some earlier wave of feminism, that taught that we can all be whoever we want to be whatever our bodies look like. And except in cases where people feel strongly that their bodies are wrong, I’m not convinced that the current approach to gender is a better answer. That is, it’s not clear to me that asking people to pick “male” or “non-binary” to be respected at work is better than asking everyone else to respect women. (To paint with an intentionally broad and imperfect brush.) Okay, this is indeed a terfy talking point. I’m happy to hear that your friends aren’t rejecting you for it. People on social media tend to be a good deal less reasonable in my experience. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But i also know that i don’t understand what’s going on in other people’s heads. And that being accepted as a woman matters a lot to some very obviously feminine people that i know. So, ya know, i try to use the names and pronouns that people indicate they want me to use. Mostly just because I’m not an asshole. I honestly think that 90% of being “woke” is not being an asshole So do I. But to the woke what you do is not nearly so important as what you believe. One is not saved by works but by faith (in today’s approved tenets). As an unbeliever, my experience of woke is that it is 90% being an asshole. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s easy, as we already aren’t doing that… So, moving on. I made a partial list of woke-by-this-definition policies from the Biden administration in an earlier reply to @Mijin here: > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/429): > > Okay, I looked at some right-wing articles to see what they are claiming as woke policies from Biden: An executive order in June 2021 calling for federal agencies to prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion in recruits and when considering promotions. Allocating Covid recovery funds on the basis of race and gender: (Spoiler: it was not constitutional) Opposing the lawsuit alleging that race-based affirmative action at Harvard and UNC was unconstitutional. [https://www.reuters.com/w…](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-administration-asks-us-supreme-court-reject-harvard-affirmative-action-2021-12-09/) These are the sort of things the Dems need to stop doing to avoid being seen as woke, though there are potentially more influential examples at local/state level which afaik Biden and the national party would not have been able to do anything about? I don’t know how much Americans lump together the different levels of the same party. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/627 "2024-11-29T23:26:49Z")
First, have you defined “woke” yet? > [@DemonTree](#): > > But to the woke what you do is not nearly so important as what you believe. Cite? I’m assuming that I’m “woke”, and I don’t think that. Does anybody in this thread? Hands? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=31)