# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/628 "2024-11-29T23:34:18Z")
I’ve had to explain to people on this site that DEI in an employment sense did not mean hiring/promoting less qualified minorities to the disadvantage of whites. It’s difficult having a meaningful conversation about issues that hurt minorities in the United States when so many people believe lies and misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/629 "2024-11-29T23:34:35Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Cite? I’m assuming that I’m “woke”, and I don’t think that. Does anybody in this thread? Hands? Who is the better person: someone who uses preferred pronouns perfectly to make a friend happy, but doesn’t really believe they are the gender they identify as? Or someone who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns, but 100% believes their friend is the gender they identify as? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/630 "2024-11-29T23:38:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Or someone who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns, but 100% believes their friend is the gender they identify as? Ummm, did you think that this was some sort of “gotcha” question? Very few, if _any_, liberals are going to get upset about a person “who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns,” but they **are** going to get upset about someone who intentionally misgenders someone because they disagree that the transgender or non-binary person has the right to prefer a pronoun other than that of their assigned-at-birth gender. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/631 "2024-11-29T23:39:26Z")
That is not, by any reasonable definition, a cite. It is a question. Possibly it is a ‘gotcha’ question. It certainly is not evidence of any kind of what ‘woke’ people believe. Please come back when you have a cite. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/632 "2024-11-29T23:43:22Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Very few, if _any_, liberals are going to get upset about a person “who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns,” but they **are** going to get upset about someone who intentionally misgenders someone because they disagree that the transgender or non-binary person has the right to prefer a pronoun other than that of their assigned-at-birth gender …that was literally my point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/633 "2024-11-29T23:44:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > These are the sort of things the Dems need to stop doing to avoid being seen as woke, though there are potentially more influential examples at local/state level which afaik Biden and the national party would not have been able to do anything about? As has been pointed out over and over, _people aren’t paying attention_ to what the Democrats are doing, only to the lies of the Republicans about what they are doing. The behavior of the Democrats has nothing to do with them being perceived as “woke”, and changing it won’t even be noticed, much less affect opinions. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/634 "2024-11-29T23:45:27Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Please come back when you have a cite. You gave yourself as an example of a woke person. Please come back when you are willing to stand behind your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/635 "2024-11-29T23:49:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As has been pointed out over and over, _people aren’t paying attention_ to what the Democrats are doing, only to the lies of the Republicans about what they are doing. The behavior of the Democrats has nothing to do with them being perceived as “woke”, and changing it won’t even be noticed, much less affect opinions It’s ever so much more convincing to tell people the Dems hate white men when you can point to actual policies where they have discriminated against them. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/636 "2024-11-29T23:50:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > that was literally my point. No, no it was not. At least, that is not what you said. You said > [@DemonTree](#): > > Who is the better person: someone who uses preferred pronouns perfectly to make a friend happy, but doesn’t really believe they are the gender they identify as? Or someone who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns, but 100% believes their friend is the gender they identify as? You spoke of **accidentally** misgendering some one. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > . . .they **are** going to get upset about someone who intentionally misgenders someone . . . **Kenobi\_65** spoke of **intentionally** misgendering some one. See the difference? Also, I am still waiting for a definition of “woke”, and an actual cite. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/637 "2024-11-29T23:51:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s ever so much more convincing to tell people the Dems hate white men when you can point to actual policies where they have discriminated against them. Not really, they prefer to just make things up and pay attention to their fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/638 "2024-11-29T23:53:17Z")
That is a gotcha question. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Who is the better person: someone who uses preferred pronouns perfectly to make a friend happy, but doesn’t really believe they are the gender they identify as? Or someone who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns, but 100% believes their friend is the gender they identify as? The correct answer is that both of these people are welcome in liberal circles, and we don’t generally go around ranking people’s virtue. It’s the third category, those who intentionally misgender others, that are not welcome and are deemed “less virtuous”. Because they actually hurt people. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/639 "2024-11-29T23:55:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You gave yourself as an example of a woke person. Please come back when you are willing to stand behind your beliefs. I did NOT say I was “woke”. I said I assumed that I was. Until you define “woke”, I cannot know if I meet your definition or not. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Who is the better person: someone who uses preferred pronouns perfectly to make a friend happy, but doesn’t really believe they are the gender they identify as? Or someone who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns, but 100% believes their friend is the gender they identify as? Assuming I fit your definition of “woke” (a definition you still have not given), I cannot judge somebody on what they believe. This is because, unless they explicitly tell me what they believe, it is impossibel for me to know what they believe. I can observe and know their actions. This has nothing to do with holding one over the other. It has to do with the fact that I am not a telepath. Now, please provide a cite for your claim, and a definition of “woke” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/640 "2024-11-30T00:07:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The correct answer is that both of these people are welcome in liberal circles, and we don’t generally go around ranking people’s virtue. > > It’s the third category, those who intentionally misgender others, that are not welcome and are deemed “less virtuous”. Because they actually hurt people. I don’t intentionally misgender people, but am not at all welcome in woke circles.“You are welcome as long as you lie about your true beliefs” is no welcome at all. The issue is the lack of tolerance for principled disagreement that I mentioned earlier. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/641 "2024-11-30T00:10:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The issue is the lack of tolerance for principled disagreement that I mentioned earlier. I think I covered that rather well, too. Happy to repeat if you missed it, though. Please just let me know. ETA: This being GD and all, may I provide cite to help @DemonTree understand just how deeply _precedented_ her “principled disagreement” _is_ in American history: [**What was Jim Crow**](https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/what.htm) Those are your progenitors in principle! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/642 "2024-11-30T00:11:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > principled disagreement A phrase that continues to be as nebulous as the first time you wrote it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/643 "2024-11-30T00:14:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > “You are welcome as long as you lie about your true beliefs” is no welcome at all. > **[Paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)** > > The paradox of tolerance is a philosophical concept suggesting that if a society extends tolerance to those who are intolerant, it risks enabling the eventual dominance of intolerance, thereby undermining the very principle of tolerance. This paradox was articulated by philosopher Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945), where he argued that a truly tolerant society must retain the right to deny tolerance to those who promote intolerance. Popper posited that if intolerant ideolo ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/644 "2024-11-30T00:15:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The issue is the lack of tolerance for principled disagreement that I mentioned earlier. I would honestly like to understand, as this conversation has been focusing on transgender: if someone believes that transgender and non-binary people are either lying or mentally ill (as I understand it, this is a non-uncommon belief held by conservatives about them), how would that person have a “principled disagreement” with those transgender and non-binary people, about how they self-identify? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/645 "2024-11-30T00:41:27Z")
This really, really reminds me of the debate over same sex marriage, where people would keep insisting that the Right had reasonable, principled reasons to oppose it; but refused to ever actually present any such reasons. They just treated it as an article of faith that the Right had good reasons for their opposition. I think this is a repeat of that; some people just consider it unacceptable to admit that the Right _acts_ like a collection of bigots, because they _are_ a collection of bigots. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/646 "2024-11-30T00:46:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > The correct answer is that both of these people are welcome in liberal circles, and we don’t generally go around ranking people’s virtue. > > > > It’s the third category, those who intentionally misgender others, that are not welcome and are deemed “less virtuous”. Because they actually hurt people. > > I don’t intentionally misgender people, but am not at all welcome in woke circles.“You are welcome as long as you lie about your true beliefs” is no welcome at all. The issue is the lack of tolerance for principled disagreement that I mentioned earlier. I guess I’m wondering what your " principled disagreement " is, then. I’ve mentioned mine. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Fwiw, i grew up with, i dunno, some earlier wave of feminism, that taught that we can all be whoever we want to be whatever our bodies look like. And except in cases where people feel strongly that their bodies are wrong, I’m not convinced that the current approach to gender is a better answer. That is, it’s not clear to me that asking people to pick “male” or “non-binary” to be respected at work is better than asking everyone else to respect women. (To paint with an intentionally broad and imperfect brush.) And also mentioned disagreements about tax policy and healthcare. I’ll say that i DO believe there are some who have profound gender dysmorphia, and who are best served by being recognized for who they are, and not what they look like. And of course, i don’t know any particular person’s internal thoughts and feelings. But… There are also less principled disagreements. For instance: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could say, “i think Black men are predators and shouldn’t date white women” or “i think gay men are predators and shouldn’t teach children” or “i think trans women are predators and shouldn’t be allowed to use the ladies room” and still been accepted in progressive circles. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/647 "2024-11-30T00:49:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But… There are also less principled disagreements. For instance: > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I don’t think there’s ever been a time when you could say, “i think Black men are predators and shouldn’t date white women” or “i think gay men are predators and shouldn’t teach children” or “i think trans women are predators and shouldn’t be allowed to use the ladies room” and still been accepted in progressive circles. Yes, but, rejecting those obvious principled disagreements just shows how unreasonable the woke truly are! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=32)