# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/688 "2024-12-01T11:15:23Z")
> [@Ash\_trav511](#): > > I feel the democrats/left still have advantage wrt MSM (tv channels like MSNBC, CNN, ABC news etc and major newspapers like NY Times and WaPo vs Fox on the right). Yeah I disagree; those were the channels I was referring to as “milquetoast bothsidesism”. They basically took the right wing line on things like gaza, open borders and inflation, happy to throw around the “antisemite” card for the former and avoid correcting misinformation on the latter. And indeed on “woke”, the topic of this thread, people like Joe Scarborough would go on long rants about how Democrats shouldn’t be so in hock to left wing “extremists”, minus any cites of what he was talking about. They break their backs trying to show they are in the political middle, thinking, erroneously, that lack of bias in journalism means being in the middle of wherever the two parties are. When lack of bias should mean being objective and factual, and covering a broad range of stories, not being halfway to insanity. The best that could be said about the MSM minus FOX, is that they tried to tout Harris as being a corporate democrat / centrist. They thought they were doing her a favor, when actually this is very unpopular with the general population. So thanks for nothing. So I 'd say on balance it’s a win for the RW in MSM (which FOX is absolutely part of), and then everything else is hands down domination by the right. And obviously they play dirty (FOX’s lies, Sinclair’s must-run segments, X promoting Trump messages and then bribing the public), so I am under no illusion how difficult it will be to get a foothold back. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/689 "2024-12-01T11:23:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > They break their backs trying to show they are in the political middle, thinking, erroneously, that lack of bias in journalism means being in the middle of wherever the two parties are. When lack of bias should mean being objective and factual, and covering a broad range of stories, not being halfway to insanity. Yeah. The “mindless middle” version of centrism is extremely easy for extremists to drag to their side; in the case of the US that means the Right. Not only that, it _requires_ them to lie, distort and censor themselves in favor of the extremists, since the facts aren’t precisely in the middle and one side is factually wrong much, much more often. As they say, “reality has a liberal bias”, which means that “centrists” need to deny reality to stay centrist. ---
**Author:** ![Ash\_trav511](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@Ash\_trav511](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ash_trav511)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/690 "2024-12-01T11:50:38Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > am under no illusion how difficult it will be to get a foothold back. Agree. Scary to think what will happen if Elon Musk ends up buying a tv channel like MSNBC (I hope it was just a casual comment/joke from Musk asking about how much MSNBC costs). I just can’t understand if the guy is joking or serious. Keeping that aside its equally scary to see Elon’s comment he will fund primaries against so called RINOs. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/691 "2024-12-01T12:17:18Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > They break their backs trying to show they are in the political middle, thinking, erroneously, that lack of bias in journalism means being in the middle of wherever the two parties are. When lack of bias should mean being objective and factual, and covering a broad range of stories, not being halfway to insanity. They aren’t left in the sense that @Der_Trihs is left, but they are left in what they choose to show and how they present stories. They treat progressive laws and victories as good things, and conservative ones as bad. They use the progressive framing I described above when talking about policies and events, not the conservative one. They are largely run and staffed by well educated but comparatively underpaid people, who overwhelmingly trend progressive, and this shows in their reporting - and the more that traditional media is undermined by social media, the worse it gets. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/692 "2024-12-01T12:38:38Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s impossible to talk about wokeness in general, because people always want examples, and then only want to argue about the examples and not the larger subject. And for some reason everyone is just desperate to discuss this one in particular. Yeah, this is the wrong thread to debate details of trans policy. But I’d love to read some other examples of what you believe to be excessive wokeness. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/693 "2024-12-01T12:44:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They treat progressive laws and victories as good things, and conservative ones as bad. They use the progressive framing I described above when talking about policies and events, not the conservative one. No, they bend over backwards to soft-pedal how bad the Right is. The only reason they don’t outright use “conservative framing” in their reporting is because they’d lose market share if they constantly screamed how they want to punish their audience. Conservatism is an endless scream of rage and hatred. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/694 "2024-12-01T12:53:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Conservatism is an endless scream of rage and hatred. Dude. Why don’t you read some conservative thinkers, or at least Wikipedia, so you can understand what it’s supposed to be about? This is “They hate our freedoms” tier analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/695 "2024-12-01T12:56:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why don’t you read some conservative thinkers, or at least Wikipedia, so you can understand what it’s supposed to be about? > I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good. … Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/696 "2024-12-01T13:00:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > they are left in what they choose to show and how they present stories. They treat progressive laws and victories as good things, and conservative ones as bad. That’s not true. They tend to criticize the right, and MAGA, and somewhat push corporate democrat points. This is balanced by them also inviting on MAGA spokespeople whose mission is just to “flood the zone”, as it were. Meanwhile support for _progressives_? Since when? I listed a few examples of where CNN and MSNBC have explicitly criticized progressives (or at least alluded to some, I can elaborate if you want the specifics), so where’s the examples of them pushing the progressive agenda? Mehdi before he got fired? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/697 "2024-12-01T14:55:06Z")
Autocorrect got me! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/698 "2024-12-01T15:27:42Z")
I figured. But it makes your post harder to parse. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/699 "2024-12-01T15:43:13Z")
I think my post is now messed up beyond all hope of explanation. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/700 "2024-12-01T17:55:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s impossible to talk about wokeness in general, because people always want examples, and then only want to argue about the examples and not the larger subject. Umm, yeah. So we don’t end up in places like this, **Poster A** : It’s impossible to talk about history in general, because people always want examples, and then only want to argue about the examples and not the larger subject. **Poster B** : I concur! Written by the victor, narrow selection of sources, all that. **Poster A** : Yes, the Holocaust was a psy-op hoax! **Poster B** : Wait a fucking minute… ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/701 "2024-12-01T18:32:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > As a child, i learned all sorts of tidy categories, like sex and species, that turn out not to be tidy when you examine them closely. This is very much the case. Humans like to sort and categorize to make sense of things, but nature doesn’t comply with humans’ categories. There are a lot of places where lines don’t actually exist, though the patterns mostly clump in ways for us to feel like we’ve found the lines. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Who is the better person: someone who uses preferred pronouns perfectly to make a friend happy, but doesn’t really believe they are the gender they identify as? Or someone who sometimes slips up and forgets to use the correct pronouns, but 100% believes their friend is the gender they identify as? At the risk of having to surrender my woke card, I would say based solely on the information provided, I wouldn’t judge either as a better person. Both are making the effort to respect other people. Neither is ill- intentioned. Beliefs are internal. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Judging by how it’s used on this site, a ‘gotcha question’ means one that the questionee doesn’t want to answer honestly because it would mean conceding some point to the asker. People are responding to a question that seems intended to elicit an answer to be used to attack them. In this case, judging who a “better person” is. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And for some reason everyone is just desperate to discuss this one in particular. That’s because this is _the_ hot button “woke” issue in the political sphere right now. Seriously, what other “woke” issue was used in political ads for the election, not just president, but down ballot state races? The only one close was the destruction and killing in Gaza, and trying to balance the horror of the Oct 7 attacks against the horror of widespread killing of children. Questioning the Israeli methods is seen as antisemitism and support for Hamas and terrorism. Supporting Israel’s right to protect themselves is seen as justifying genocide. There’s a middle ground there that is being ignored by both ends. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/702 "2024-12-01T18:34:48Z")
Yeah I think it’s pretty essential to find examples of being too woke, given the OP. In fairness the OP did include some examples, although I think they were largely hypothetical, and then summed up with the (in my view, false) claim that it is why the election was lost. _Caricatures and lies_ about woke were a factor in the election, maybe third after inflation and immigration, but most people cannot name actual woke policies that exist on Earth 1.0 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/703 "2024-12-01T18:50:08Z")
In case you missed it: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > It’s impossible to talk about wokeness in general, because people always want examples, and then only want to argue about the examples and not the larger subject. And for some reason everyone is just desperate to discuss this one in particular. > > Yeah, this is the wrong thread to debate details of trans policy. But I’d love to read some other examples of what you believe to be excessive wokeness. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/704 "2024-12-01T19:31:33Z")
I’d also appreciate a response to my questions: > [@Zoobi](#): > > Do you think that keeping Black people out of public swimming pools because they make White residents uncomfortable is similarly a principled disagreement? > > Or would I be justified in calling it a racist position? > > Or keeping gay teachers out of classrooms because it makes some parents uncomfortable that the gay teachers will try to convert their children? > > Could I call that homophobic? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/705 "2024-12-01T19:36:18Z")
While we are at it- You still have not provided a definition of “woke” You still have not provided a cite. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/706 "2024-12-01T20:20:28Z")
Defining ‘Woke’ is tricky, but that doesn’t mean discussion of the concept is impossible, or even difficult. Hell, the progressive left never came up with anything close to a cohesive definition of ‘alt-right’, but that didn’t stop progressives the length and breadth of the country from flinging the label around like confetti when it was _en vogue_ circa 2016. Still, since you’ve asked, how about this? Woke: A pathological over-sensitivity to any insult (real or imagined, deliberate or accidental) to identity-based human dignity, resulting in tremendously over-exaggerated perceptions of harm, an eagerness to identify and ostracise offenders, and intellectual inflexibility. I’m not claiming that this definition is perfect, but I think it touches on many (although probably not all) of the things that people who don’t like wokeness have a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/707 "2024-12-01T20:22:36Z")
I should add, that definition isn’t original to me. It’s roughly paraphrased and cobbled together from definitions I’ve seen elsewhere online. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=35)