# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/748 "2024-12-02T15:11:42Z")
**DemonTree** I am still waiting for a definition of “woke” and a cite backing up your claim that ‘woke people’ value beliefs over actions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/749 "2024-12-02T15:39:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, I think they should stop considering equity in healthcare because it is likely to lead to bad, discriminatory policies. Given that _not_ considering equity has led to bad, discriminatory policies, I’m not sure how you’re reaching this conclusion. Note that the closest you’ve come to citing it is a preliminary recommendation that was quickly overturned before being enacted, from four years ago. Conversely, I’d be happy to cite bad, discriminatory policies enacted when equity wasn’t considered, if you don’t believe me. That said, we’re inching closer to an actual definition: “Woke” apparently involves considering equity issues when designing policies. Should this be toned down? Oh hell no. > [@DemonTree](#): > > [I]f some group is being treated unequally, health services should aim to give them equal treatment, not deliberately privilege them or decide some lives are worth more than others. Equity as understood and practiced today is too often the latter. untrue ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/750 "2024-12-02T16:33:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Woke” apparently involves considering equity issues when designing policies. Should this be toned down? Oh hell no. How in your view would healthcare considering equity differ from healthcare based on treating people equally and working to include everyone as I described above? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/751 "2024-12-02T16:44:16Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **DemonTree** I am still waiting for a definition of “woke” and a cite backing up your claim that ‘woke people’ value beliefs over actions. Try asking nicely. I’m f\*\*\*\*\*\* tired of getting multiple hostile responses and demands every time I post, and you’re asking me to do a lot of work here just to get more of the same. I’m not getting paid for this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/752 "2024-12-02T16:44:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > How in your view would healthcare considering equity differ from healthcare based on treating people equally and working to include everyone as I described above? Treating people equally doesn’t always make sense. I once worked for a lead researcher in sickle cell anemia. When he was looking for volunteers for an experimental treatment, he specifically engaged in outreach to African American communities. More than 90% of the disease’s sufferers in the US are Black. Why would he _not_ prioritize outreach to Black communities? Of course, he didn’t turn away White sufferers of the disease–that would be the right-wing caricature, not reality. But when a particular suffering falls disproportionately on a particular community, “equality” calls for ignoring that disproportionality; “equity” calls for recognizing it and devising solutions that take it into account. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/753 "2024-12-02T16:56:48Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Try asking nicely. I’m f\*\*\*\*\*\* tired of getting multiple hostile responses and demands every time I post, and you’re asking me to do a lot of work here just to get more of the same. I’m not getting paid for this. Two things #1 I did ask nicely. Here are cites proving I asked nicely. I even used the word please. You still have not provided a definition of “woke” or a cite for your claim. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Now, please provide a cite for your claim, and a definition of “woke” > [@Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/639): > > I did NOT say I was “woke”. I said I assumed that I was. Until you define “woke”, I cannot know if I meet your definition or not. Assuming I fit your definition of “woke” (a definition you still have not given), I cannot judge somebody on what they believe. This is because, unless they explicitly tell me what they believe, it is impossibel for me to know what they believe. I can observe and know their actions. This has nothing to do with holding one over the other. It has to do with the fact… #2 I am under no requirement to ask politely (though, as my cites show, I did). I am required to follow the board and forum rules. Those roles don’t say a thing about ‘politenes’. Last I checked, GD rules did require claims to be backed by cites. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/754 "2024-12-02T17:07:00Z")
It may be time to stop flogging a dead horse? As I said upthread, the word means very different things to different people. I doubt there is any definition that everyone would agree on? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/755 "2024-12-02T17:09:11Z")
I am not asking, and never have been, for a definition every one can agree on. I am asking **DemonTree** to give a definition of what she means when she uses the word. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/756 "2024-12-02T17:11:37Z")
Fair enough. I am not going to get involved in a dispute between two other posters. In fact, I am done with this thread altogether. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/757 "2024-12-02T17:18:10Z")
This is not a dispute. **DemonTree** used a word that > [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > means very different things to different people. So, I asked her to define it. **DemonTree** made a claim. I asked her to back it up with a cite. That is not a dispute. It is how Great Debates works. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/758 "2024-12-02T17:18:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Try asking nicely. I’m f\*\*\*\*\*\* tired of getting multiple hostile responses and demands every time I post, and you’re asking me to do a lot of work here just to get more of the same. I’m not getting paid for this. Yeah, been down that “I would answer but you just aren’t asking in that very special way (which I will not reveal) so forget it!” road many times before. I think that if there were a simple answer that actually benefitted your argument you would have revealed it by now because, if it existed, it could only help your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/759 "2024-12-02T17:23:21Z")
Then I doubt there is any reason to use the word at all, especially as a vague attack phrase. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/760 "2024-12-02T17:24:38Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > the word means very different things to different people. Without definitions the thread itself becomes pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/761 "2024-12-02T17:28:04Z")
> [@Ash\_trav511](#): > > This seems to be a big reason for the significant red shift in California Significant red shift? I’m not sure how significant it was. It looks likely the Democrats flipped three House seats (albeit by the skin of their teeth) to make the total 43-9 vs the the previous 40-12. CA state senate looks like it will be 31-9, state assembly 62-18, both continuing to be solid super-majorities. Schiff cruised to an easy victory in the Senate. Trump scored a higher percentage of the vote than in 2020 because the Dem vote tailed off a bit, but saw very little gain in absolute numbers - he had about six million in both 2020 and 2024. Some wee bit of a red shift in some subtle ways might be arguable. But significant in electoral terms? No. Not yet, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/762 "2024-12-02T22:33:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But seriously, you can easily find this out for yourself. Read some right-wing news sites, or follow some conservatives or even centrists on Twitter. You can’t understand people if you don’t know what they’re thinking or how the policies you support appear to them, and boy does it show in these kinds of discussions. Basking in hatred and lies like that is both very unpleasant and dangerous. People aren’t immune to propaganda. And since they _are_ liars you won’t learn anything meaningful, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/763 "2024-12-02T23:20:57Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, I think they should stop considering equity in healthcare because it is likely to lead to bad, discriminatory policies. …the New Zealand definition of equity in healthcare: > [@](#): > > In Aotearoa New Zealand people have differences in health that are not only avoidable, but unfair and unjust. Equity recognises different people with different levels of advantage require different approaches and resources to get equitable health outcomes. > **[Achieving equity - Health New Zealand | Te Whatu Ora](https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/corporate-information/about-us/achieving-equity)** > > We all need to understand what equity means for health and wellness so we can work together to reach that goal. This isn’t “woke.” The differences in healthcare outcomes are _avoidable_. They often happen because [of](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32994637/) [institutional](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8751454/#:~:text=Reported%20experiences%20of%20racism%20in,with%20subsequent%20poor%20health%20outcomes.) [racism](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/urgent-need-for-action-institutional-racism-killing-and-harming-maori-says-health-quality-safety-commission/MEDVHPJBTVEQXQGP6W7BQPFWUE/). This is backed up with peer reviewed science. It isn’t based on your “feelings.” “Considering equity in healthcare” doesn’t lead to bad, discriminatory policies. This is all measurable. What it leads to is _equity_. The unfair and unjust and _avoidable_ differences in healthcare being reduced. > [@DemonTree](#): > > What if they had found fewer POC would die in the first scenario, even though more people would die overall? Why would you imagine if the evidence conclusively showed that more people would die overall, that the healthcare strategy wouldn’t pivot to address that? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Equity as understood and practiced today is too often the latter. This isn’t correct. The healthcare system _as is_ privileges the majority: study after study after study confirms that. Trying to address that imbalance is what equity is all about. Its about “health services aiming to give them equal treatment”, the very thing that you say that you want. And none of this is about “woke.” > [@DemonTree](#): > > I do think if a community or demographic is underserved or not taking advantage of public services, then civil servants should investigate why and try to ameliorate it if necessary. Yeah, but here’s the thing: they’ve done this. We’ve got the studies. It isn’t a new thing. Equity isn’t a thing the wokesters decided that they wanted in healthcare. It is an evidence based approach to achieve the things that you said you want the healthcare system to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ash\_trav511](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@Ash\_trav511](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ash_trav511)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/764 "2024-12-03T01:40:34Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Significant red shift? I’m not sure how significant it was. I In presidential election in 2020 the democratic lead in California was 29.16 percent vs a lead of 20.2 percent in 2024 with 99 percent votes in. A near 9 percent shift statewide is significant imo. ---
**Author:** ![Ash\_trav511](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@Ash\_trav511](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ash_trav511)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/765 "2024-12-03T01:54:18Z")
> **[NY’s dramatic ‘red shift’ sees Trump support grow in nearly every county, led...](https://www.aol.com/ny-dramatic-red-shift-sees-000230428.html)** > > New York is seeing red. In NY the red shift is even more significant. I hope and pray the democratic leadership addresses this very significant movement away from blue to red rather than ignore/deny. Exit polls show this shift in varying degrees towards the republicans among young voters (18-29 year olds especially all young men…latinos, white, black, asian), latinos, black men, asian americans. ---
**Author:** ![Ash\_trav511](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@Ash\_trav511](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ash_trav511)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/766 "2024-12-03T01:58:01Z")
> **[See the Voting Groups That Swung to the Right in the 2024 Vote](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/11/06/us/elections/trump-america-red-shift-victory.html)** > > Donald J. Trump’s swift victory was driven by red shifts across the country, with gains among seemingly every possible grouping of Americans. This NY Times article gives a better picture of where the red shift occured. Quite scary looking at the picture… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/767 "2024-12-03T08:57:22Z")
> [@Ash\_trav511](#): > > A near 9 percent shift statewide is significant imo. It really isn’t. In 2020 Trump won 6,006,518 votes. So far in 2024 he has 6,065,209. The bulk of the difference is fewer people bothering to vote Democrat (in a state where the result was a foregone conclusion), not a lot more people voting Republican. The Republicans did make small gains in the state senate and assembly, but only enough to raise their proportion in each to a staggering 25%. In the House they lost ground (by either two or three). CA may be getting redder and may get redder yet in the future, we’ll see. It also might just be the pretty normal ebbing and flowing of a few competitive seats. But significantly redder THIS election? I stand by no. If CA is getting redder it is doing so like some people claim Texas is getting bluer. By inches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=38)