# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/908 "2025-01-23T19:22:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > what annoyed me is that I felt she was trying to control how I thought about suicide which is the case with some of the other changes in phrases. We went from illegal alien to undocumented worker, from homeless to unhoused, etc., etc., because people want us to change our attitudes about these things. Word choice is a way of changing our attitude. And combine that with shunning and cancelling, and it truly does become a matter of power, not mere advocacy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/909 "2025-01-23T19:25:39Z")
Who is being shunned and canceled for saying “homeless” instead of “unhoused?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/910 "2025-01-23T19:27:25Z")
But the eyes have rolled!!! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/911 "2025-01-23T19:27:36Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > was African American. He was born in South Africa No, he was a South African-American. African American has a meaning, it, generally, denotes the descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States who can not, easily, determine their ancestral nationality or ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/912 "2025-01-23T19:30:09Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And that: the suspicion that it’s less about being unfeeling or rude, and more about the language reformers attempting to control the narrative, demanding that everyone hew to the approved terminology that pre-defines the issue. e.g., “undocumented immigrant” vs. “illegal alien”. Of course they are trying to “control the narrative”, just as the Right is by using dehumanizing terms like “illegal”. The difference is that the people trying to humanize their targets generally mean well, even if they are sometime patronizing. While the Right is as malignant as humanity can get. You own example is a good example of that; “illegal” is a way of demonizing people, of claiming they don’t even deserve to exist. Even serial killers don’t get called “illegal”. Because what do you do with something illegal? You _eliminate_ it. It’s a term made to justify violence, oppression and race war, the American version of _untermenschen._ Which is a _lot_ worse than a term meant to make the point that their “crime” is literally just a matter of some papers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/913 "2025-01-23T19:32:45Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > was African American. He was born in South Africa and lived there for many years before coming to the US. He was not black. No, he was not African American. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/914 "2025-01-23T19:33:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You own example is a good example of that; “illegal” is a way of demonizing people, of claiming they don’t even deserve to exist. Even serial killers don’t get called “illegal”. Because what do you do with something illegal? You _eliminate_ it. I always thought it just meant they were in the country illegally. It never occurred to me anyone thought it meant they shouldn’t exist at all. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/915 "2025-01-23T19:39:26Z")
I think referring to an “illegal alien” is less bad than using the noun “illegals”, which really is a dehumanizing term. In any case, “undocumented immigrant” seems more neutral to me. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/916 "2025-01-23T19:41:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I always thought it just meant they were in the country illegally. It never occurred to me anyone thought it meant they shouldn’t exist at all . That’s why we have these conversations (that others criticize as woke). In the old days it was called “consciousness raising.” A lot of terms are loaded with meaning that are not immediately apparent to everyone. I didn’t know that squaw was derogatory for a long time, for example. Now I do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/917 "2025-01-23T19:41:41Z")
“Illegal alien” is till an awful term in a society where “alien” is almost never applied except to nonhuman things you are supposed to kill. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/918 "2025-01-23T19:51:24Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I always thought it just meant they were in the country illegally. Except where “illegally” was chosen in preference to “unlawfully” for, obvious, reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/919 "2025-01-23T19:51:45Z")
Reformers are a disparate band of individuals who each have their own agendas. Not a monolithic bloc. Justice IS victory, when injustice is the rule of the day. Fairness is one thing, and impartiality is a different thing. Impartiality means you don’t have any bias, and reformers do definitely have one. In the cases under discussion, it is a bias toward truth, and empathy for those who are oppressed. Truth, as in, yes, there is horrific bigotry, fear, and hatred, institutional and otherwise, toward many groups of people. It damages them, and it also damages the people who benefit from the oppression and deny the truth. I know quite a few activists, and almost all of them hope for an increase in compassion, and in the desire to understand people other than those like themselves. They hope we will become a more just society. They hope we will extend our resources to helping those most in need of them. There are also activists who just love a fight, and need an enemy. They are a minority but they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/920 "2025-01-23T19:55:09Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I think referring to an “illegal alien” is less bad than using the noun “illegals”, which really is a dehumanizing term. In any case, “undocumented immigrant” seems more neutral to me. I remember an anchor saying that’s precisely why they switched. Undocumented immigrant was neutral whereas illegal immigrant wasn’t. > [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s why we have these conversations (that others criticize as woke). In the old days it was called “consciousness raising.” Anything involving people and identity can become complicated very quickly. I recently learned that there was something of a generational divide among Asians about the use of the word Oriental. There are some older Asians who prefer Oriental which honestly surprised me because Asian has been the preferred term my entire life. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Except where “illegally” was chosen in preference to “unlawfully” for, obvious, reasons. The obvious reason being because we don’t typically say something is unlawful? > [@Ulfreida](#): > > There are also activists who just love a fight, and need an enemy. They are a minority but they exist. These were the folks I used to think of as social justice warriors. They most often didn’t do much that was useful, but they were quick to pick fights, very often over minor disagreements in word choice or slights real or imagined. Of course these days the SJW label can be attached to anyone who expresses any concern about racism, sexism, homophobia, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/921 "2025-01-23T20:01:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Except where “illegally” was chosen in preference to “unlawfully” for, obvious, reasons. Please explain the supposedly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/922 "2025-01-23T20:02:21Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The obvious reason being because we don’t typically say something is unlawful? We don’t think of unlawful with all the baggage that comes along with illegal. ‘Illegal’ is the folks on the Group W bench, ‘unlawful’ is folks committing ‘’‘white collar’‘’ ‘’‘’‘crime’‘’‘’. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/923 "2025-01-23T20:18:00Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > African American has a meaning, it, generally, denotes the descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States who can not, easily, determine their ancestral nationality or ethnicity. The English language uses words in multiple ways. That’s why we park on a driveway and drive on a parkway. The logic of how a particular term or phrase evolved will make sense, but over time that history is largely forgotten until all that is left is the puzzling expression. Consider that object everyone carries around that has the antiquated name “phone”. The younger set will use it for a dozen purposes, but hardly as a telephone. Texting is preferred communication method. African American is a term that was coined to specifically denote American descendents of slaves, whose heritage originated in Africa, but the specifics of that heritage are lost to the chaos of how they were relocated. So it may be accurate to say someone is an American who was born in Africa, but that doesn’t make them the specifically coined term African American. Also, Colin Powell’s family may have come from the Caribbean, but that was an indirect path from Africa. It’s still likely his ancestors were slaves from Africa transported west. They just took a detour before getting to the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/924 "2025-01-23T20:18:46Z")
I think people who love to be angry in a righteous cause exist in virtually every sphere of life and political ideology. They are always damaging, because anger may get you moving, but it’s not a healthy place to live, for you and those around you. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/925 "2025-01-23T20:20:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s a term made to justify violence, oppression and race war, the American version of _untermenschen._ Which is a _lot_ worse than a term meant to make the point that their “crime” is literally just a matter of some papers. Funny, I thought it was a term literally describing their legal status– they’re here in defiance of US law; which is _why_ they don’t have those papers. Yanno, I used to think that reluctance to admit foreigners into the USA was mostly racism, until I learned just how hard it is even for people from the British Isles, Australia and New Zealand. White, first-world English-speakers, who could possibly object? But in fact they’re treated with as much suspicion as anyone. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/926 "2025-01-23T20:22:05Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > they’re here in defiance of US law; which is _why_ they don’t have those papers. Maybe they’re here legally, as refugees, but they haven’t had their hearing yet, so don’t have their papers. They’re still undocumented, but their ultimate status will change to refugee. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/927 "2025-01-23T20:24:31Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Funny, I thought it was a term literally describing their legal status– they’re here in defiance of US law; which is _why_ they don’t have those papers. If we only had a word to describe their paperless, some might say undocumented, status, but alas, we do not… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=46)