# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/928 "2025-01-23T20:25:42Z")
And that they broke US law to enter the country is meaningless? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/929 "2025-01-23T20:26:53Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > We don’t think of unlawful with all the baggage that comes along with illegal. > ‘Illegal’ is the folks on the Group W bench, ‘unlawful’ is folks committing ‘’‘white collar’‘’ ‘’‘’‘crime’‘’‘’. Group W bench? I hear “unlawful”, and I think about D&D alignments, because that’s where I’m familiar with the term “lawful”. The only other place I hear it is in the expression “lawfully wedded wife”. “Illegal” is the term applied to violations of the law. Even “white-collar” crime is illegal. I’ve never heard something described as “unlawful”. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/930 "2025-01-23T20:27:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And that they broke US law to enter the country is meaningless ? Think of how you would fee if they drove over the speed limit while crossing the border. Not entirely meaningless, but a minor infraction. They want to come here. We want them to come here. Why have we made it so hard? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/931 "2025-01-23T20:32:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So it may be accurate to say someone is an American who was born in Africa, but that doesn’t make them the specifically coined term African American. Sometimes in my more trollish moods I’m tempted to start spelling it out as Af-ri-can-A-mer-i-can just to emphasize how clumsy a seven-syllable term feels compared to its predecessors. At least “Amerind” didn’t stick. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/932 "2025-01-23T20:33:58Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > We want them to come here. That the topic is the subject of a national debate would seem to flatly contradict that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/933 "2025-01-23T20:34:07Z")
Yes, two syllables are less than seven syllables. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/934 "2025-01-23T20:35:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Yanno, I used to think that reluctance to admit foreigners into the USA was mostly racism, until I learned just how hard it is even for people from the British Isles, Australia and New Zealand. White, first-world English-speakers, who could possibly object? But in fact they’re treated with as much suspicion as anyone. It _is_ mostly racism. Trump’s scare ads focused on brown hispanic folks from south of the border. The rumors of cat and dog eating were about Haitians- brown Haitians who were here legally. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/935 "2025-01-23T20:35:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, two syllables are less than seven syllables. Deal with it Well if I did actually start spelling out the syllables I’d be accused of being actively insulting. > [@DocCathode](#): > > It _is_ mostly racism. Trump’s scare ads focused on brown hispanic folks from south of the border. The rumors of cat and dog eating were about Haitians- brown Haitians who were here legally. And yet that doesn’t translate into one iota of lessening the requirements for white, first-world English speakers. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/936 "2025-01-23T20:36:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, two syllables are less than seven syllables. Deal with it. Funny that no one complains about any of the other polysyllabic hyphenated Americans isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/937 "2025-01-23T20:37:08Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Well if I did actually start spelling out the syllables I’d be accused of being actively insulting. Well, maybe if you put a clap emoji between every syllable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/938 "2025-01-23T20:37:32Z")
No, you would not be accused of being insulting. You definitely _would_ be insulting…and quite bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/939 "2025-01-23T20:38:59Z")
Which circles back to the topic of this thread: insult is in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/940 "2025-01-23T20:39:22Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I hear “unlawful”, and I think about D&D alignments, because that’s where I’m familiar with the term “lawful”. The only other place I hear it is in the expression “lawfully wedded wife”. I kind of like the idea of Chaotic and Lawful Immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/941 "2025-01-23T20:40:38Z")
Your first post on the subject s > [@Lumpy](#): > > But in fact they’re treated with as much suspicion as anyone. This is patently false. They are held to the same legal requirements as other immigrants. They, being white and speaking English, are treated with _far less_ suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/942 "2025-01-23T20:48:14Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Which circles back to the topic of this thread: insult is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is more accurate to say the insult is in the heart of the insulted. If you have never been homeless, or a young black man, or someone who was never able to get legal status after decades of trying, decades of working hard, paying taxes, raising a family in the US, if you have never been a young woman walking down a city street, if you have never been a gay man just trying to have a normal life … you simply cannot speak for what insulting is, for them. Because you don’t fucking know. The closest you can come to knowing is by listening to them and respecting what they say. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/943 "2025-01-23T20:51:23Z")
Well said-Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/944 "2025-01-23T20:53:01Z")
I agree very strongly with this. I grew up a middle class white boy in the suburbs. Years before I started wearing a yarmulke, I learned to listen for “jew” “jewboy” and “k!ke” as alerts to danger and possible physical attack. As I have often talked about I have known a woman from Panama for at least twenty years now. Being brown, she can easily hear slurs about Hispanic/Latino or black people. I say seriously what George Carlin said in one of his routines. It is not the words themselves that are ugly and dangerous. It is the hate they are said with, and the bigots who say them that are dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/945 "2025-01-23T21:05:24Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Anything involving people and identity can become complicated very quickly. I recently learned that there was something of a generational divide among Asians about the use of the word Oriental. There are some older Asians who prefer Oriental which honestly surprised me because Asian has been the preferred term my entire life. Thing is, “Oriental” is a term that only became “bigoted” because it was _used by bigots_ in a bigoted fashion; unlike a lot of slurs there’s nothing negative about the word itself, nor is it one of those slurs that was only ever used as a slur. It’s literally just another way of saying “Eastern”, dating from back when maps were “oriented” east-side up. And many, many people throughout history have used the term with no bigoted meaning at all. There’s also the issue that “Asian” is basically shoehorning the people of the region into a Western-created racial system that they likely don’t agree with. So it’s going to have a more mixed reputation than many used-only-as-an-insult terms. ---
**Author:** ![Frilly\_Heck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90ced4/32.png) [@Frilly\_Heck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frilly_Heck)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/946 "2025-01-23T21:11:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And the same thing for Black vs. African American Those are not interchangeable, although there are many people who are both. The most obvious difference is you have to be American to be African American, but you don’t to be Black. Y’all might think this is so obvious it goes without saying, but I have heard people say something along the lines of “he’s an African American from [eg] Germany” more than once. Not because some evil language cabal is out there forcing nonsense on people – just because people are lazy and sloppy with language. It’s one of our classic human features. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/947 "2025-01-23T21:22:08Z")
> [@Frilly\_Heck](#): > > just because people are lazy and sloppy with language Yep, and all the while we have these kids memeing, in their incomprehensibleese, about how they’re sticking out their gyat for the rizzler. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=47)