# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/948 "2025-01-23T21:40:44Z")
When Star Trek Voyager came out, a I kept hearing reporters refering to Tuvok as “the first African American Vulcan”. This irritates me to this day. Tuvok is from Vulcan. All his ancestors are from Vulcan. He is nether African nor American. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/949 "2025-01-23T21:44:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s also the issue that “Asian” is basically shoehorning the people of the region into a Western-created racial system that they likely don’t agree with. And the alternatives are even more meaningless. Asian-American Pacific Islander or whatever it is these days. A sloppy combining of something like three billion people and most of a hemisphere with very little in common. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/950 "2025-01-23T22:02:10Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > When Star Trek Voyager came out, a I kept hearing reporters refering to Tuvok as “the first African American Vulcan”. This irritates me to this day. Tuvok is from Vulcan. He was the first Vulcan played by an African American actor though. (perhaps. I don’t know that for sure). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/951 "2025-01-23T22:09:42Z")
But that’s exactly what we’re talking about. Someone, somewhere decided that “Illegal aliens” is dehumanizing, and then it was essentially **pushed** onto everyone else, as if everyone else was _wrong_ for using the generally accepted term. Surely you don’t see how that might put a bad taste in someone’s mouth? Here you are, using the term that’s commonly used, and someone else comes along, tells you you’re wrong, and demands you use some other term you’ve never heard of. It’s the direct or indirect implication that you’ve done something wrong that rubs a lot of people the wrong way about it. That’s the issue- it’s not about people not wanting to call people what they want to be called, it’s totally (or was pre-Trump) about people not wanting to be told they’re wrong when they’re doing things in good faith. I’ll use an example from my own life. (as preceded by @Odesio’s comments) I grew up in a suburb of Houston (Alief) with a very large Asian population. The word the Asian people used to describe themselves at the time was “Oriental”, so that’s what we used. Fast forward a couple of decades and moving to the Dallas area (not nearly so many Asians around), and I used the term “Oriental” in good faith to describe someone who is Asian, and was corrected for it. Honestly, it kind of irritated me initially- who was this (white) asshole telling me that I’m wrong- that’s what the Oriental guys called themselves! Granted, I reassessed the situation and realized that times had changed, but most people don’t actually reassess anything- they just feel pissed and act out of emotion. (think about how many idiots post 1 star reviews of products because Amazon delivered it beat up or something) . ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/952 "2025-01-23T22:33:51Z")
Someone, somewhere decided to use “Illegal aliens” because it is dehumanizing, pushed it onto everyone else, and refuse to consider any neutral term because dehumanization is their goal. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/953 "2025-01-23T22:39:52Z")
Exactly this, blatantly so. It’s a weird turn of phrase that makes no sense at all except as an attempt to dehumanize them as much as possible. As I said, we don’t even call serial killers “illegal”, only their acts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/954 "2025-01-23T22:42:43Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The OK sign was used by white supremacists for a while Maybe, but it started as a troll from 4chan or whatever. It never was for decades and decades, then people got taken in ny the trolls. Now did many white supremacists actually use it as a WS symbol? Or were they just signing OK? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > - There was a common sign that assholes were using to troll activists at the time (the OK symbol). It was great for trolling because it also has innocuous connotations, and trolls love nothing more than claiming innocence. > - This guy was photographed making that sign as he drove past the protest. Who was trolling who? And he claims he was just cracking his knuckles. Not to mention a mexican american is unlikely to be a white supremacist. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > “undocumented immigrant” vs. “illegal alien”? There is actually a difference. I dont like that term, but in theory an "illegal alien” entered the USA illegally, while a “undocumented immigrant” entered legally on a visa, but the visa expired. > [@Lumpy](#): > > At least “Amerind” didn’t stick. I kinda liked it. I mean “Indian” is old and wrong. “Native American”? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/955 "2025-01-23T22:46:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not to mention a mexican american is unlikely to be a white supremacist. Hear that Nick? > According to Fuentes, he is of Mexican descent via his paternal ancestors > **[Nick Fuentes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fuentes#Personal_life)** > > Nicholas Joseph Fuentes (born August 18, 1998) is an American far-right political pundit, activist, and live streamer who promotes white supremacist, misogynistic, and antisemitic views. His YouTube page was permanently terminated in February 2020 for violating YouTube's hate speech policy. Fuentes has promoted antisemitic conspiracy theories against Jews and called for a "holy war" against them, and has denied the Holocaust. He has been described as a neo-Nazi by various sourc Collaborating ... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/956 "2025-01-23T22:50:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Hear that Nick? Sure, and there are black and gay MAGAs, But that’s not the way to bet. > **[How 5 key demographic groups voted in 2024: AP VoteCast](https://apnews.com/article/election-harris-trump-women-latinos-black-voters-0f3fbda3362f3dcfe41aa6b858f22d12)** > > Donald Trump won the presidency after holding tight to his core base of voters and slightly expanding his coalition to include several groups that have traditionally been a part of the Democratic base. _Nationally, about 8 in 10 Black voters supported Harris._ > **[LGBT voters, a larger share of the electorate than ever, shift away from Trump](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/lgbt-voters-away-from-trump-2024-election-record-change-rcna178939)** > > Vice President Kamala Harris led President-elect Donald Trump 86% to 12% among lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender voters, according to the NBC News Exit Poll Desk. _Vice President Kamala Harris led President-elect Donald Trump 86% to 12% among lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender voters, according to the NBC News Exit …_ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/957 "2025-01-23T22:53:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But that’s not the way to bet. I guess the one drop rule applies to Mestizos? Ya know, their European ancestry allowing them to claim their Whiteness. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/958 "2025-01-23T22:53:49Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I guess the one drop rule applies to Mestizos? > Ya know, their European ancestry allowing them to claim their Whiteness. what are you babbling about? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/959 "2025-01-23T22:55:39Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Someone, somewhere decided to use “Illegal aliens” because it is dehumanizing What if I flatly say “no it’s not, you’re wrong”? Because if you **are** wrong, then the people complaining that you’re jumping down their throats are voicing a legitimate grievance. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/960 "2025-01-23T22:56:30Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Hear that Nick? Relevant information for Enrique, too. > **[Enrique Tarrio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio)** > > Henry "Enrique" Tarrio (US English: /ˈtɑːrioʊ/ TAR-ee-oh; US Spanish: \[taˈri.o\]; born 1983 or 1984) is an American convicted seditionist and far-right activist. From 2018 to 2021, he was the chairman of the Proud Boys, a neo-fascist organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States. Along with three other Proud Boys leaders, Tarrio was convicted in May 2023 of seditious conspiracy for his role in the 2021 United States Capitol attack. In September 2023, Tarri T... ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/961 "2025-01-23T22:56:52Z")
Are people with European ancestry White? Can Mexicans of European ancestry be White supremacists? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/962 "2025-01-23T22:59:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > the people complaining that you’re jumping down their throats are voicing a legitimate grievance. To paraphrase one of their leaders, “ ~~Facts~~ I don’t care about your feelings.” And only because they don’t seem to give a single fuck about anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/963 "2025-01-23T23:01:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Are people with European ancestry White? > Can Mexicans of European ancestry be White supremacists? Anyone can be a white supremacist. There’s no entry test. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/964 "2025-01-23T23:08:57Z")
I’m reminded of an old thread, [Can the swastika be redeemed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-redeemed/369674) about whether it would ever be possible to de-appropriate an ancient symbol back from the Nazis. Some posters basically said no, saying that intent doesn’t matter the Swastika now is _ **inherently** _ a hate symbol for all time, regardless of one’s intentions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/965 "2025-01-23T23:20:30Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Anyone can be a white supremacist. There’s no entry test. Oh sure. But let’s go back to the dude in the truck. From the cites I read, he had no white supremacist background or social media posts. His one sin was supposedly making the OK sign, which is of very doubtful white supremacist meaning- not that it cant be. Next he claims he wasnt even making the OK sign, just cracking his knuckles. > [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m reminded of an old thread, [Can the swastika be redeemed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-swastika-be-redeemed/369674) about whether it would ever be possible to de-appropriate an ancient symbol back from the Nazis. And of course it depends- if you have some ancient Sanskrit items, that predate Hitler- certainly not racist. If you have a red armband with that symbol- very very likely nazi. In general, it shouldn’t be used today. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/966 "2025-01-23T23:34:24Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Surely you don’t see how that might put a bad taste in someone’s mouth? Here you are, using the term that’s commonly used, and someone else comes along, tells you you’re wrong, and demands you use some other term you’ve never heard of. It’s the direct or indirect implication that you’ve done something wrong that rubs a lot of people the wrong way about it. > > That’s the issue- it’s not about people not wanting to call people what they want to be called, it’s totally (or was pre-Trump) about people not wanting to be told they’re wrong when they’re doing things in good faith. Understanding and empathy are reserved for people higher on the intersectional pyramid of privilege, it seems. > [@Lumpy](#): > > And that they broke US law to enter the country is meaningless? Yes, these language games are also frequently dishonest. Activists urge people to use their new terms on the pretext that they are more polite, while actually aiming to change attitudes through language (whether that’s effective is a different debate). When challenged, they use the excuse that ‘language evolves’ to cover their directed, non-evolutionary changes. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Yanno, I used to think that reluctance to admit foreigners into the USA was mostly racism, until I learned just how hard it is even for people from the British Isles, Australia and New Zealand. White, first-world English-speakers, who could possibly object? But in fact they’re treated with as much suspicion as anyone. I saw a conspiracyish explanation for this recently: that the US limiting immigration from Europe and the Anglosphere is a favour to their allies, since if they choose they could easily braindrain all the talented young people away, with extremely ill effects on the other countries’ economies. Really, I think they just want to have uniform rules. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/967 "2025-01-23T23:49:19Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > They want to come here. We want them to come here. Why have we made it so hard? Most Americans do not want them there, as shown by Trump winning the popular vote, and by successive governments not changing the law to allow them to immigrate legally. That’s why you made it so hard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=48)