# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1008 "2025-01-24T17:49:17Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > My entire point is a mirror of the Golden Rule, > _Treat other people as they treat other people_. There was a science-fiction novella by Damon Knight called “Rule Golden”. An alien comes to Earth and spreads a virus that gives everyone a limited form of telepathy: they feel the mental and physical pain of others, especially if they inflict suffering on others it comes back to them. Wonderful, right? But an obvious flaw in the scheme occurs to me: What about the _ **neurotic** _? The walking pain-machines who take things as hurts that are unreasonable, and in doing so demand that the entire world accommodate them? As the child of a deeply neurotic mother, I can assure you that taking hurt isn’t always innocent. Hell, as this thread testifies I suffer from a thin skin and don’t take criticism well; I’m working on it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1009 "2025-01-24T17:52:04Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Best as I can tell, it happened a _long_ time ago- certainly not within my lifetime. I somehow doubt it was the result of some sort of proto-SJWs driving the switch from crippled to handicapped back in the early-mid 20th century. So you are saying you have no cite or evidence. You just base this claim on your doubts. > [@bump](#): > > What is your point? Are you really trying to claim there’s not a gay culture out there? Simple googling shows that it’s definitely a thing. Well then, do that simple Googling, pick a link, and post a cite. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1010 "2025-01-24T17:55:22Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > What about the _ **neurotic** _? The walking pain-machines who take things as hurts that are unreasonable, and in doing so demand that the entire world accommodate them? Got it, we’re not even ‘woke’. We are just neurotic. So, **Miller** you wanting the right to marry, anti gay discrimination laws, sodomy laws off the books, and not to be called a f@ggot- it’s all because you are neurotic. I am glad that’s cleared up. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1011 "2025-01-24T18:08:34Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The walking pain-machines who take things as hurts that are unreasonable, and in doing so demand that the entire world accommodate them? But enough about conservatives and the religious right. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1012 "2025-01-24T18:09:30Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What do the many out and proud, left leaning, liberal gay folks I have known have in common with a Log Cabin Republican? Since one of the things log cabin Republicans like to say is that they’re gay without being a part of “gay culture”, I’d guess the answer to your question is “not much”, and also that it’s not really relevant to anything. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Well then, do that simple Googling, pick a link, and post a cite. My opinion on this topic is undoubtedly _far_ closer to yours than to Bump’s, but I don’t understand what our side gains with this kind of gaslighting. Of course “Gay Culture” is a thing; if someone makes untrue claims about what gay culture does or does not include, or argues that gay culture is threatening to children, we can certainly argue those points; but how is it useful to pretend that something we all know about is a fantastical claim to make? Here’s your cite: > **[LGBTQ culture](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_culture)** > > LGBTQ culture is a culture shared by lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer individuals. It is sometimes referred to as queer culture (indicating people who are queer), LGBT culture, and LGBTQIA culture, while the term gay culture may be used to mean either "LGBT culture" or homosexual culture specifically. > LGBT culture varies widely by geography and the identity of the participants. Elements common to cultures of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people include: > Not a... ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1013 "2025-01-24T18:13:56Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > What about the _ **neurotic** _? The walking pain-machines who take things as hurts that are unreasonable, and in doing so demand that the entire world accommodate them? > > Got it, we’re not even ‘woke’. We are just neurotic. > > So, **Miller** you wanting the right to marry, anti gay discrimination laws, sodomy laws off the books, and not to be called a f@ggot- it’s all because you are neurotic. > > I am glad that’s cleared up. I’m saying that every claim of oppression has to be evaluated on the merits, because not every such claim can automatically be presumed to be valid. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > But enough about conservatives and the religious right. har. har. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1014 "2025-01-24T18:24:48Z")
You cut off of a vital bit of the part of what you quoted. > [@DocCathode](#): > > What specific “values?” I am especially curiou to see the answer to this one. What do the many out and proud, left leaning, liberal gay folks I have known have in common with a Log Cabin Republican? He said they had values in common. I asked what specific values they had in common. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1015 "2025-01-24T18:34:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m saying that every claim of oppression has to be evaluated on the merits, because not every such claim can automatically be presumed to be valid. Let me quote someone dear to you, That’s the point though- who decides and what authority do they have to push that on everyone else? History is filled with claims of oppression that were evaluated on their merits . . . and, curiously, the oppressors, almost always, found the claims to be meritless. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1016 "2025-01-24T18:46:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > He said they had values in common. I asked what specific values they had in common. The LGBT community shares values like acceptance and promotion of LGBT rights, I am sure. That’s kinda what that community is based around, right? But I think that’s a bit of a red herring - not every community is built around shared values. There’s certainly a culture that surrounds video games, or sports, or craft beers; these are based on common interest, not shared values. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1017 "2025-01-24T18:54:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > My opinion on this topic is undoubtedly _far_ closer to yours than to Bump’s, but I don’t understand what our side gains with this kind of gaslighting. I am **not** gaslighting. > [@Babale](#): > > Of course “Gay Culture” is a thing I read the linked article. I remain unconvinced. > [@Babale](#): > > if someone makes untrue claims about what gay culture does or does not include, or argues that gay culture is threatening to children, we can certainly argue those points; but how is it useful to pretend that something we all know about is a fantastical claim to make? Thank you for assuming I am malicious rather than ignorant or dubious. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > **LGBTQ culture** is a [culture](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture) shared by [lesbian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian), [gay](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay), [bisexual](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality), [transgender](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender), and [queer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer) individuals. It is sometimes referred to as **queer culture** (indicating people who are [queer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer)), **LGBT culture** , and **LGBTQIA culture** , while the term **gay culture** may be used to mean either “LGBT culture” or homosexual culture specifically. > > [Boston](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_culture_in_Boston) [gay pride](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_pride) march, held annually in June > > LGBT culture varies widely by geography and the identity of the participants. Elements common to cultures of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and [intersex](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) people include: > > - Works by [famous gay, lesbian, bisexual](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_gay,_lesbian,_or_bisexual_people), and [transgender](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_people) people, including: > - Contemporary LGBTQ artists and political figures like [Larry Kramer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Kramer), [Keith Haring](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Haring) and [Rosa von Praunheim](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_von_Praunheim). > - Historical figures identified as LGBTQ, although identifying historical figures with modern terms for sexual identity is controversial (see [History of sexuality](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sexuality)). However, many LGBTQ people feel a kinship with these people and their work (particularly that addressing same-sex attraction or [gender identity](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity)); an example is [VictoryFund.org](http://VictoryFund.org), dedicated to supporting homosexual politicians. > > - An understanding of [LGBT social movements](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_social_movements) > - Figures and identities present in the [LGBTQ community](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_community); within LGBT communities in [Western culture](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture), this might include [drag kings](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_king) and [queens](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen), [pride parades](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_parade) and the [rainbow flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(gay_movement)). > - [LGBTQ communities](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_community) may organize themselves into, or support, [movements for civil rights](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movements_for_civil_rights) promoting [LGBT rights](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights) in various places around the world. Okay- First, I have a problem with the title." LGBTQ culture" I somehwo doubt all these groups, which have mostly been lumped together and discriminated against by society and allied largely because there is strength in numbers, have a single culture. Second, the list gives the names of famous gay artists, historical figures, and current important figures. This seems to me like an outline for an article or an article stub. I still don’t see a description of what gay culture actually is. Let give a presumably imperfect example. Penn and Teller are both atheists. They are very open about this. In interviews, Teller is a nice Jewish boy. He clearly does not believe in or practice Judaism as a religion. It is also very clear, he is shaped by and connected to the Jewish culture. He speaks at least a little Yiddish. His mother almost certainly made him chicken soup with matoh balls. He is fond of the European peasant food that is Ashenazi food. Etc. What is “gay culture” then? Obviously, I think people shoudl be free to love, marry and live without laws against them. Their should be law protecting people from discrimination. But, that does not a culture make. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1018 "2025-01-24T18:56:28Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Culture is one of those things that are a little fuzzy when it comes to definition. Is there an American culture? I’d say yes. Black culture? We’re in a thread discussing wokeness which is a word that arose among the African American community, so yeah, there’s a Black culture. People within a culture usually have shared experiences, practices, values, language, etc., etc. That isn’t to imply they’re a monolithic block, in lockstep on all these shared experiences or values, but it’s there. It was **Odesio** who brought up “shared values”. Not me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1019 "2025-01-24T19:06:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The LGBT community shares values like acceptance and promotion of LGBT rights, I am sure. That’s kinda what that community is based around, right? There’s definitely books, and movies, and music made by gay artists, based on their experiences living as a gay person, intended for a largely gay audience. If books, movies, and music don’t constitute “culture,” I don’t know what does. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Let give a presumably imperfect example. Penn and Teller are both atheists. They are very open about this. In interviews, Teller is a nice Jewish boy. He clearly does not believe in or practice Judaism as a religion. It is also very clear, he is shaped by and connected to the Jewish culture. He speaks at least a little Yiddish. His mother almost certainly made him chicken soup with matoh balls. He is fond of the European peasant food that is Ashenazi food. Etc. I have no idea how this example applies to the conversation at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1020 "2025-01-24T19:13:09Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What is “gay culture” then? Obviously, I think people shoudl be free to love, marry and live without laws against them. Their should be law protecting people from discrimination. But, that does not a culture make. I guess there’s no such thing as gamer culture, anime culture, golf culture, basketball culture, soccer culture, craft beer culture, gym bro culture… The fact that Joe is super into craft beer and the culture that sorrounds it doesn’t mean he can’t also have a Jewish upbringing that’s a much deeper and more meaningful shared experience than “we both like going to breweries and trying craft beer on the weekend”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1021 "2025-01-24T19:15:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > The LGBT community shares values like acceptance and promotion of LGBT rights, I am sure. That’s kinda what that community is based around, right? > > There’s definitely books, and movies, and music made by gay artists, based on their experiences living as a gay person, intended for a largely gay audience. If books, movies, and music don’t constitute “culture,” I don’t know what does. Right, but I wouldn’t describe those as shared _values_, necessarily; they’re forms of art that speak to a common experience (being LGBT in a society that’s largely cis and heterosexual) that people who partake in “gay culture” share. I wouldn’t say that gay culture is built around shared values, beyond the shared values of gay acceptance; instead it’s built around a shared experience. Other cultures are built around common interests. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1022 "2025-01-24T19:19:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Right, but I wouldn’t describe those as shared _values_, necessarily… I wouldn’t either - I was giving examples of things that could be called “gay culture” that _aren’t_ value based. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1023 "2025-01-24T19:26:46Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Because they mean the same thing? “Black” and “African American” obviously don’t mean the same thing. I have a friend, born and raised in Uganda, who lives in Hawai’i now. She’s Black, but she’s not African American. Her experience growing up had nothing to do with American Black culture or the reverberating effects on US-based Black communities of historical racism in America. On the other hand, her son was born and raised in Brooklyn, as an American citizen participating all along in US culture as a Black man. He identifies as African-American. His mother does not. And if there is no difference between “African American” and “Black,” does that mean the vast majority of citizens in Nigeria or Tanzania or Mozambique etc. etc. are “African American”? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1024 "2025-01-24T19:38:50Z")
While I will contnue posting in this thread, I will now attempt to stop digging myself in deeper on this particular sub topic. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1025 "2025-01-24T20:33:51Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, I’d say that if a 75 year old man from segregation era Texas was using the term “Black” by the time he died, that’s a victory, even if African-American was a euphemism too far. But you guys don’t see it that way, and that’s unfortunate. Please do not personalize your arguments. I do not represent any group of “guys”, and you have no idea how I do or don’t see anything. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1026 "2025-01-24T20:49:54Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > “It didn’t happen and it’s good that it did.” FYI, “it isn’t happening and it’s good that it is” is a common kind of gaslighting from ‘woke’ people, where they first deny that something you object to is happening - often while calling you a bigot for accusing nice progressives of it - then when shown evidence that the thing in question really is happening, insist that it’s good, and you’re a bigot for objecting to it. Extremely tedious and annoying. Some of them are simply ignorant, some are disingenuous. It’s generally not worth engaging… and I should remember that. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1027 "2025-01-24T21:02:50Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > And if there is no difference between “African American” and “Black,” does that mean the vast majority of citizens in Nigeria or Tanzania or Mozambique etc. etc. are “African American”? I remember an American journalist calling Lenny Henry (famous British comedian) ‘African American’ in an interview. Funny, but the journalist obviously learned it as a replacement for ‘black’ or whatever word he grew up with - a name for a racial group - rather than a parallel to terms like ‘Irish American’ and ‘Italian American’ as I assume was the intention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=51)