# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1088 "2025-01-26T12:40:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > However, Trump’s first presidency appears to have negatively polarised a lot of people on the left to support something akin to an open borders position Cite for any democrat ever suggesting open borders? I’m aware of Hillary saying in 2015 that she dreamt of open borders _for trade_. Who has advocated for an open border for people? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Biden did little, and continued welcoming and paroling record numbers of migrants until election year. I would say it’s true that Biden had a (slightly) more compassionate policy than Trump, and that and the post-covid surge probably were significant factors in the number going up. However, if we’re giving him blame for the numbers going up, he should get credit for bringing them back down – having to equivocate and say it was an election year shows you’re being partisan on this, you can’t just analyze the facts objectively. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Cite that the media leans heavily rightwards, please. It’s a hard thing to “cite” per se, as it’s an analysis. My analysis was back in [post 687](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/687). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1089 "2025-01-26T12:52:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Immigration had surged in 2019, and Trump was able to quickly reduce it again. And the next surge started in mid-2020. As I said. > [@DemonTree](#): > > However, Trump’s first presidency appears to have negatively polarised a lot of people on the left to support something akin to an open borders position. This isn’t remotely true, which explains the weasel words in it. “Appears to”, “a lot of people”, something akin”… People didn’t oppose Trump’s border policy because they wanted an open border, despite the right-wing false narrative about this. People opposed it because it was fucking stupid. “Just build a wall” sounds obvious but it’s an extremely inefficient and ineffective (and expensive) method of border control. The majority of illegal immigrants don’t cross secretly cross the southern border, many do so in ways that a wall wouldn’t stop, and for those faced with a wall there are these things called ladders and ropes. And Trump’s policies were largely bluster. Hundreds of millions spent and very little achieved. During the 2024 campaign he stood in front of a section of unfinished wall and declared it a failure of Biden while pointing to a section of finished wall and claimed credit - except that the unfinished wall was from his presidency and the finished one from Obama’s. Trump’s policies were also (like most of his policies) incredibly cruel. Children who were literally with their families (including nursing infants) were taken and placed into the US adoption system (via private agencies owned by Trump cronies), while other children as young as 3 faced deportation hearings on their own and with no translators or carers present. Speaking of Obama, let’s recall that in 2013 a massive border security bill was introduced to Congress and the GOP blocked it - not because it was bad but because the GOP strategy was to block anything Obama proposed. > [@DemonTree](#): > > However, when it rose to ever greater heights during Biden’s presidency, Biden did little, and continued welcoming and paroling record numbers of migrants until election year. Also not true, although I’m enjoying the irony of your “It did happen and if it didn’t it’s bad” position. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It almost certainly contributed to Trump winning the popular vote this time around, since the issue has greatly increased in salience, and the majority of people are unhappy with Biden’s handling of it. **Really** not true. The “majority of people” - which seems to include you - believe that the “border was open”, that there was an “invasion” in progress, that there was a “migrant crime wave”, that “Venezuelan gangs had taken over American cities”, that immigrants were “eating pets”. And the reason they believed and continue to believe these things - none of which are even close to being true - is > [@Gyrate](#): > > Because the right are **really good** at lying. You are attempting to claim that the election result was a referendum on Biden’s actual immigration policy, which even you don’t appear to fully know, when the reality is that it was heavily skewed by the sort of propaganda above. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Additionally, with the election approaching and public disapproval of Biden’s policies clear Again - not his **actual** policies. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It likely resulted in more encounters, but reduced the number of migrants admitted to the US, which was the actual aim. [/quote] > “Likely”? No. Quite the opposite. Lots more “gotaways”, and lots more actual criminals coming through. > > [quote]Why do you think Biden continued it if the results were so bad? Because he was afraid of the exact public perception that you keep echoing. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Because she was part of the Biden admin, and represented a continuation of it. The administration that, as I showed, brought illegal immigration dramatically down again? No, it was definitely the “right wing lies” thing. > [@DemonTree](#): > > If the Dems had held a real primary, they could have picked someone who took an ideologically more hardline stance on illegal immigration, and could convincingly claim they would do things differently. Too late to change that, though. Who did you have in mind, specifically? Must be a person who actually exists. > [@DemonTree](#): > > According to the quote in my previous post, he asked her to address the ‘root causes of emigration’: > [@DemonTree](#): > > The US has rather limited powers to address economic and safety issues in other countries, unless it’s willing to take them over and become a genuine empire. Or she could have done what she **actually** did, which is to use the powers the US has to address economic and safety issues in other countries. Which is a process that actually _works_, unlike “just build a wall”. To quote a different thread: > [@The Trump Administration: The Clusterfuck Continues](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-the-clusterfuck-continues/1010068/1055): > > This kind of ‘soft power’ is extremely influential; under the Biden administration, we were [paying some Central and South American countries to provide housing and employment for immigrants fleeing desperate political and social situations in order to reduce pressure on our border](https://youtu.be/HyzGkEV3p2g?si=OSMxts0Nqc_xEAas) which costs pennies on the dollar in comparison to direct border enforcement and interdiction. Buying influence in this way is cheaper, more effective, and often prevents getting engaged in political and military conflicts. But what the Republicans were damning her for was not doing a meaningless performative photo op at the border, as if they expected her personally to turn back all crossers. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Truth is, the Federal government should have been doing this already, if it was unable or unwilling to reduce the numbers entering through the border The Federal government _did_ do some of this (which, funnily enough, the GOP complained about). Whereas randomly dumping asylum seekers with no notice and no resources under false pretenses out of cruelty and spite, like Abbott and DeSantis did, is not a policy they should have adopted. > [@DemonTree](#): > > No, I don’t. This sounds like one of those things that’s technically true but in practice full of loopholes. Oh look: Did you actually read the article? The President has some discretion to re-distribute funds that have **already been allocated by Congress**. Which is a point most of that article makes. It also points out that attempting to do so outside of a narrow set of circumstances is legally dubious, and that the previous Trump administration’s stance was effectively “We’re doing it anyway - so sue us”. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1090 "2025-01-26T13:04:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Biden did little, and continued welcoming and paroling record numbers of migrants until election year. Do you have a cite for that? Not because I don’t believe you but because I don’t have a clue what _Biden, paroling, and migrants_ mean when put together into a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1091 "2025-01-26T15:28:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Many people aren’t against equal rights for gay people or for gay marriage or whatever, but draw the line at some of the more… interesting behavior at Pride parades or don’t approve of the gay hookup culture or whatever. It’s a step too far for them, and when it’s pushed, they bristle and react negatively. Sure, there are behavior extremes from some gay people. But there are behavior extremes from het people all over the place. Think Mardi Gras and straight hookup culture and college culture of drinking to excess and having wild sex. Not everyone does those things, and some people disapprove of them, but those are far more mainstream than anything from “gay culture”. The people that disapprove are thought of as “stuffy prigs who should lighten up”. In other words, not celebrating the extremes of gay behavior and the reaction to that is right in line with not celebrating the extremes of straight behavior and the reactions to that. The difference is that when it’s “gay culture” behaviors, the response gets framed in terms of all gay people, not some extreme behaviors. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Most obviously when in comes to media treatment of Trump himself: AFAIK the motives of the shooter were never identified, but no honest person could deny that the frequent accusations that Trump was a fascist, was going to end democracy, etc etc, could plausibly motivate an attempt to kill him. Just look at his actions the first week in office, you can see descriptions of Trump being a fascist and wanting to end democracy are accurate descriptions. Using those words isn’t the trigger, it’s his words and behaviors that create those perceptions that create the motives. > [@DemonTree](#): > > The difference is that there isn’t a festival to celebrate dudebros, at which they publicly say gross shit about girls; > **[Woodstock '99](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799)** > > Woodstock 1999 (also called Woodstock '99) was a music festival held from July 22 to July 25, 1999, in Rome, New York, United States. After Woodstock '94, it was the second large-scale music festival that attempted to emulate the original 1969 Woodstock festival. Like the previous festivals, it was held in upstate New York; the festival site was the former Griffiss Air Force Base in Rome, roughly 100 miles (160 km) northwest of the 1969 Woodstock site in Bethel. Approximately 220,000 people MT... > [@](#): > > Extensive substance abuse and poor security, along with a perceived culture of [misogyny](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny),[[12]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-ntfl-12)[[50]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-:11-50)[[75]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-:10-75) contributed to widespread abuse of female concertgoers throughout the festival. During [the Offspring](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Offspring)’s performance, singer [Dexter Holland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_Holland) condemned the crowd’s behavior after witnessing numerous women being groped in the audience, as did [Red Hot Chili Peppers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers) bassist [Flea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flea_(musician)) and [Jamiroquai](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamiroquai) singer [Jay Kay](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Kay) during their sets.[[76]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-76)[[77]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-77) At least five rapes and numerous other [sexual assaults](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault) and incidents of sexual harassment at the festival were officially reported, though it is widely believed that a far greater number of unreported incidents occurred.[[78]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-newsline-78) Eyewitnesses reported a crowd-surfing woman being pulled down into the crowd and assaulted in the mosh pit during [Limp Bizkit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_Bizkit)’s set.[[79]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-79) During the post-show rave on Saturday night, an apparently intoxicated man stole and drove a maintenance truck into the rave hangar through the crowd during [Fatboy Slim](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatboy_Slim)’s set,[[4]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-nineteenworstthings-4)[[12]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-ntfl-12) in which staff reported seeing a teenage girl being raped; Fatboy Slim and his entourage were asked to evacuate the premises immediately, fleeing to a nearby airport and flying out the following morning.[[12]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-ntfl-12)[[80]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-80) A volunteer also reported seeing a gang rape during [Korn](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korn)’s performance.[[81]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_%2799#cite_note-81) > [@DemonTree](#): > > Netflix does not have a policy to include more old rich dudes with young mistresses in their workforce and programming; They don’t need more, they are owned by them. > [@DemonTree](#): > > there is no social pressure to approve of and even celebrate Spring Break culture in order not to be seen as a bigot. Oh really? Is there a widespread campaign to end Spring Break party culture? Are there any outspoken complaints that rise to anywhere near the level of complaints against the extreme behaviors of some gay people? And is there any kind of blanket negativity for hets like there is for gays because of a subset of the group’s behaviors? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1092 "2025-01-26T19:03:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > please consider how anti-immigration movements in various European countries will interpret what you say. Why ? Does the State of Hawaii need to take anti-immigration movements in various European countries into account to decide how to distribute Hawaiian Homelands? If yes, I’m curious as to the reasoning. As to the definition, [this’ll do.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Hawaiians) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1093 "2025-01-26T20:22:47Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Why ? Does the State of Hawaii need to take anti-immigration movements in various European countries into account to decide how to distribute Hawaiian Homelands? If yes, I’m curious as to the reasoning. So would you say that the same applies to England? An English person who doesn’t have a house is “houseless” but has his home, England; but an English born descendant of more recent immigrants is “homeless” even if he owns property? I assume you would say this _does not_ apply to England, but if so, why not? Both the English and the Hawaiians have a similar history, in terms of how the cultures first arose. An island or group of islands, already colonized by others who came before, is conquered by a new culture, and the admixture of the old and new culture creates Hawaiian/English people. Interestingly, the two invasions seem to to have happened at a comparable time in history! Although obviously for England this was the last in a chain of invasions while for Hawaii this was one of only a handful of instances. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1094 "2025-01-26T20:31:51Z")
**Moderating:** This thread is pretty off course at this point and it has become very problematic. I’m closing it until Tuesday to give us time to review this mess and a serious review of one of the posters who led the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1096 "2025-01-27T17:06:50Z")
Thread is partially reviewed. Thread is a topic drift mess and I’m leaving it closed. No warnings issued. One link was broken/removed. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/1098 "2025-01-27T19:15:44Z")
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