# Is it Time to Tone Down the Wokeness, Especially about the Past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287 "2024-11-15T15:14:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/172 "2024-11-17T17:30:21Z")
**Moderating:** No more replies on Antifa please, wrong thread. * * * * * * * * * **If you are responding to something in a thread that is basically off-topic or likely to lead to a hijack, try this:** How to **Reply as a linked Topic** : Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. That is actually the best method. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/173 "2024-11-17T17:52:39Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 22 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/174 "2024-11-17T18:00:34Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I recall it mostly being used by Trumps chief of staff and generals. Like former Joint Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley: [_Axios_: “Trump’s top general calls former president ‘fascist’ and ‘dangerous’ threat”](https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book) > [@DrDeth](#): > > True, plenty of posts here calling both trump and deSantis both fascists. And both of them are, albeit in different ways. Frankly, DeSantis is even more of a textbook [burning] Mussolini-style fascist than Trump, who is just a grievance-filled entitled asshole for whom fascism is just a convenient _modus operandi_ to attract other fascist-minded people, many of whom are currently in charge of the GOP. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Not to mention Chamberlain and the Poles. Neville Chamberlin’s [infamous appeasement](https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/appeasement-and-peace-our-time) was over German annexation of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. Poland had its own rather complex history of appeasement with the Third Reich, i.e. the _German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact_ which resulted in Poland marginalizing itself and then being summarily divided between Germany and the Soviet Union. Which, frankly, is an even better object lesson about appeasement and capitulation with an enemy you know means to do you harm. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > > Apropos of nothing in particular, what’s the matter with _awakened_? “Woke” is a verb. > > It’s the word chosen by African-Americans in African-American English in the 1930s. Meaning to ‘wake up to’ the marginalization, systemic oppression, and often outright violence done to Black people and communities. Black Americans are quite familiar with the real meaning of ‘fascism’ because as a group they have experienced fascist-like repression, objectification, and gaslighting for generations. It is a perfectly astute term to describe awareness of those conditions which has unfortunately become hijacked, first by conservatives and then what subsumed the Tea Party movement to become today’s far-right Republican party to describe, well, basically anything they don’t like, which is essentially everything that isn’t malignant jingoism and bullying marginalized people for fun and profit. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/175 "2024-11-17T18:07:11Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > basically anything they don’t like In their mouths, nothing but a [snarl word](https://www.thoughtco.com/snarl-words-and-purr-words-1692796). ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/176 "2024-11-17T18:13:58Z")
To be honest, I’m not even sure what ‘woke’ means? Seems to have been one of those repurposing of English words which happen from time to time (like ‘gay’), but in this case, is there any concensus? The same seems to be happening with the word ‘brat’. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/177 "2024-11-17T18:17:58Z")
Here’s a starting point: > **[Woke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke)** > > Woke, the African-American English synonym for the General American English word awake, has since the 1930s or earlier been used to refer to awareness of social and political issues affecting African Americans, often in the construction stay woke. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to be used to refer to a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights. Woke has also been used as shorthand for some ideas of the American Left involving identi... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/178 "2024-11-17T20:07:24Z")
> **Hidden by WE?** > > > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > > Neville Chamberlin’s [infamous appeasement](https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/appeasement-and-peace-our-time) was over German annexation of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. > > Yes, but it led to the invasion of Poland as Hitler thought Chamberlin would just rool over again. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/179 "2024-11-17T20:08:31Z")
> [@fedman1](#): > > i wasn’t referring to myself, but this virtue-shaming can be somewhat hypocritical and self-righteous (Pharisees), and then I’m reminded of what Jesus said about “ALL have sinned and come short”, and also ‘casting the first stone’ I bet the big shamer in chief (Jesus) would had an issue with what you say in context. In context, a lot of what the right wing calls “woke” are things that they do not like; yes, they nowadays hate what Jesus said too. > **[Christianity Today Editor: Evangelicals Call Jesus “Liberal” and “Weak”](https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak)** > > A former evangelical leader is sounding the alarm about the direction his religion is headed in. > Moore openly criticized Donald Trump, whom many evangelical Christians embraced. Moore also criticized the Southern Baptist Convention’s response to a [sexual abuse crisis](https://newrepublic.com/article/166646/southern-baptist-convention-sex-scandal) and [increasing tolerance](https://newrepublic.com/article/170206/ron-desantis-catholicism-trump-evangelical) for white nationalism in the community. > > Now he thinks his religion is in crisis. > > Moore told [NPR](https://www.npr.org/2023/08/08/1192663920/southern-baptist-convention-donald-trump-christianity) in an interview released Tuesday that multiple pastors had told him they would quote the Sermon on the Mount, specifically the part that says to “turn the other cheek,” when preaching. Someone would come up after the service and ask, “Where did you get those liberal talking points?” > > “What was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, ‘I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ,’ the response would not be, ‘I apologize.’ The response would be, ‘Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,’” Moore said. “When we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/180 "2024-11-17T20:12:41Z")
**Moderating** : This is a classic example of going off-topic by replying to someone. Be aware of the thread you are in and don’t help hijack it. I nearly modnoted you when you mentioned Chamberlain the first time. > **How to Reply as a linked Topic** > > Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. > > Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. > > That is actually the best method. ---
**Author:** ![Aescwynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Aescwynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aescwynn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/181 "2024-11-17T20:34:08Z")
If you read Gangsters of Capitalism, it seems that Theodore Roosevelt was one of the main architects of setting up an American empire. I don’t disagree with the main assertion, however, that lefties are quick to impose punishments that don’t fit the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/182 "2024-11-17T20:44:45Z")
> [@Aescwynn](#): > > I don’t disagree with the main assertion, however, that lefties are quick to impose punishments that don’t fit the crime. Do tell us who “lefties” have been punishing so unjustly. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/183 "2024-11-17T23:34:44Z")
I doubt the specific issues listed in the OP made much difference. But I do think the attitudes underlying them were relevant in the election: over the last few decades there has been a gradual reversal from the left as counter-cultural and taboo-breaking, to becoming moralists ready to lecture and penalise others for their attitudes and behaviour. That’s unattractive and off-putting to the majority who don’t share this particular strain of progressivism. Then there’s the question of identity politics. Right-wingers like to blame illegal immigrants (who can’t vote), LGBT people and black people (relatively small minorities) for problems. Left-wing identity politics casts white men as the bad guys, frequently extending to all white people and/or all men, and the former group makes up over 1/3 of the electorate while the latter groups make up over 2/3. One of these strategies is more demographically advantageous than the other. It is also off-putting if politicians appear more focused on niche issues affecting minorities than widely relevant ones like the economy. To some extent this is down to reporting and where voters get their information, but everyone should do what they can to avoid this appearance. Vibes are probably a lot more important than detailed policies here: most people who are well informed on politics already have strong opinions and aren’t swing voters. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/184 "2024-11-18T03:19:59Z")
Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Ash\_trav511](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@Ash\_trav511](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ash_trav511)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/185 "2024-11-18T08:17:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Vibes are probably a lot more important than detailed policies here: most people who are well informed on politics already have strong opinions and aren’t swing voters. Agree ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/186 "2024-11-18T11:34:37Z")
> [@Gordon\_G](#): > > Wow! How _long_ did it take “leftists” to figure out the absurdity of ‘Latinx’? > > ‘Latino’ and ‘Latina’ have the advantage of being actual words in the Latino/Latina ( 🙂 ) language! How could ANY sane person imagine they’d prefer the unpronounceable ‘Latinx’? When the textbooks about the Fall of American Democracy are written ‘Latinx’ may be a go-to example of “leftist” stupidity. I learned about the term from a Latinx woman who preferred its use (and I call her Latinx because that’s the terms she prefers). Broad-brushing it to say that no sane person imagines someone would prefer the pronounceable term “Lah-tin-X” is misunderstanding the issue, and glossing over the reasons why some folks adopted it. Which is the real problem with woke: it’s a slur term predicated on misunderstanding (intentionally or otherwise) the actions that people on the left take. There’s no way for leftists to tone down the slurs used against us. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/187 "2024-11-18T12:58:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Which is the real problem with woke: it’s a slur term predicated on misunderstanding (intentionally or otherwise) the actions that people on the left take. There’s no way for leftists to tone down the slurs used against us. Yes, this. Whatever the term’s origin or original meaning, at this point it’s in practice a right wing snarl word with no deeper meaning than “I hate you”. And the Left has no mind control powers to determine what the Right says. So “toning down the wokeness” won’t change a thing on that front, because the Left isn’t the driving force behind the accusations in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/188 "2024-11-18T13:18:05Z")
That said, there are definitely some leftist things that I disagree with. I’d put them into three big categories: 1. Noobs. Folks who have just started thinking seriously about _anything_ are likely to be more confident about their ideas than their ideas merit. This includes religion, video games, cast iron cookware, linguistics, and politics. Some folks who have recently started thinking about leftism say dumb shit for the same reason that people who have just started thinking about cast iron cookware say dumb shit: they don’t yet understand the subtlety and nuance of the field. 2. Ideologues. Some folks who get into a new subject get captured by a mindset that says, “Simpler is better, and here’s a set of principles that are simple and clear (and incidentally wrong, but who cares about that)”. For the left, this can easily turn to “the most radical position is the best.” Over many decades of activism starting in my mid-teens, I’ve seen this one a lot; and the Ideologues on the left whom I’ve talked with say things very similar to the sedevacantist I sat next to on a Greyhound bus once. Any time someone says something like, “You know I’m right, you’re just coming up with silly arguments to deny it,” they’re an ideologue. There are ideologues about everything, and they’re not the best. 3. Control freaks. Sometimes you get a person who wants power, and they’re going to use whatever is at hand to control the folks around them. If they’re in a Christian group, they’ll talk about what Jesus wants and selectively quote scripture. If they’re in a videogame chat, they’ll reference their idiosyncratic understanding of mid-eighties consoles to make other people feel stupid so they can dominate the conversation. If they’re billionaires, they’ll spend dark money to buy the election so they can have a puppet president. And if they’re leftists, they’ll call you a bigot when you disagree with them over anything and question your understanding of consensus processes. It’s not because they’re “woke,” it’s because they’re power-mad assholes. Is it time for noobs to be humble, for ideologues to read _The Crooked Timber of Humanity_, and for control freaks to shut the fuck up? Absolutely. But in no way is that confined to the left. Edit: there is a fourth category, which is thoughtful, principled disagreement. Those are the cases where I am much less confident that the person is wrong and that I am right. I am mostly talking about people who take positions that strike me as egregiously stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/189 "2024-11-18T13:43:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ideologues. Some folks who get into a new subject get captured by a mindset that says, “Simpler is better, and here’s a set of principles that are simple and clear (and incidentally wrong, but who cares about that)”. One form of this I’ve noticed on the Left is a tendency to fixate on what I’ve heard called “Devil Theories”. A “Devil Theory” is picking something and trying to blame everything wrong on the world on that _one_ thing, building a whole elaborate ideological system that blames all the woes of the world on it. Some pick “the patriarchy”, some “capitalism”, some “hierarchy”, some pick other things. Generally they _are_ actually right to blame some problems on their Devil, but their version of leftism starts becoming detached from reality when it starts trying to blame their devil for things that _aren’t_ actually its fault, or demonizing something harmless because the “Devil” somehow favors it. And of course it inherently means neglecting all the _other_ sources of problems besides the chosen “Devil”. Also it lends itself to the mindset of “get rid of this one Great Evil and all the problems of the world are solved forever”, which is probably a major reason it’s attractive in the first place. Both because it promises a simple solution, and kills all criticism of their favored utopia since according to them their utopia cannot possibly have any problems without the “Devil” to create them. Right now the version I see most often of this is against capitalism. Lots of blaming literally everything wrong on “end stage capitalism” (including issues that existed _long_ before capitalism), proposing some non-capitalist utopia, and deflecting all criticism of it with “without capitalism that won’t happen”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/190 "2024-11-18T13:46:06Z")
So we just need to get rid of Devil Theory thinking! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287/191 "2024-11-18T13:46:20Z")
Hahaha! That’s well done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-to-tone-down-the-wokeness-especially-about-the-past/1010287.md?page=10)