# Is it time women took some responsibility for sex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341 "2012-12-07T20:20:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/121 "2012-12-12T23:56:36Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > I try not to nitpick posts, because it tends to shut down discussion, but I need to check some things with you. > > MRA - multiple regression analysis? I checked on Wikipedia, and that’s the only version of this acronym which fits in the context. (Pretty please, spell it out first, and then use the acronym.) Men’s Rights Activist. Sorry, I thought it was a common term. Maybe it’s because I’ve been reading a lot of feminist blogs lately. > [@](#): > > And then . . . envelopment? Was this the wording in the studies you looked at? Is it perhaps an dialectical variation in legal wording? Because, I’ve got to say, coming at this topic from the point of view of being a woman, a writer, and a former English teacher, that’s about the worst possible word choice for the event in question. > > Envelope is an active, transitive verb, and in this specific context, can only mean the vagina (or rectum, or mouth, or what have you) enveloping the penis. It directly implies that the actor in the event is the victim, that the victim’s vagina is enveloping the penis. Can you see why I’m doing a serious look askance at this? What I was saying is that some Men’s Rights Activists conclude that since many definitions of rape (such as the FBI’s) only define rape in terms of penetration, i.e. inserting tongue, penis, finger, etc into vagina, mouth, anus etc, of COURSE the statistics show that rapists are predominately male. A lot of MRAs then argue that if the definition ALSO included envelopment – that is, a woman enveloping a man’s penis in her mouth, anus, or vagina forcibly or without his consent, then the statistics would show that women are rapists more often than shown now and that men are victims more often than shown now, which is perhaps a logical conclusion, but a lot of them take it to the point where they argue that when accounting for envelopment men are EQUALLY or MORE likely to be raped than women, which is where I start to dissent. Which is why I said “I’ve heard some MRAs conclude otherwise…” following the sentence “Rape, itself, is a primarily female problem.” I was saying that there are people who argue otherwise, i.e. that rape isn’t a problem primarily faced by women because the statistics are skewed due to bad definitions of rape. Again, I haven’t been convinced of this but I was mentioning it for completeness’ sake. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/122 "2012-12-13T00:03:56Z")
In other words, you were right about "envelopment’ implying the woman was the actor, you just missed the context of why I was using the terminology (the woman being the perpetrator rather than the victim) because of my sloppy prose. My mistake, I’ll try to be clearer in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/123 "2012-12-13T00:10:39Z")
No one disputes males can and are raped, but with rare, rare exceptions they fall into two categories; men in prison or children molested by adult men. As for false accusations of rape. Yes they do happen, and historically huge numbers of African-American men were lynched or imprisoned after falsely being accused or rape, but it’s extremely rare, particularly if you exclude cases of accidental misidentification which also happens in all crimes. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/124 "2012-12-13T00:18:48Z")
Somewhere between 10 and 50 percent of rape claims appear to be false if you believe some of the stats and cites above. Apply that stat to the number of women reporting rape and thats a good number of men being falsely accussed. Uncommon perhaps? Yes IMO. Rare? No IMO. Extremely rare? Definite nope. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/125 "2012-12-13T00:36:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No one disputes males can and are raped, but with rare, rare exceptions they fall into two categories; men in prison or children molested by adult men. I don’t think you understand exactly what their argument is. They acknowledge that that’s what the statistics say. They think those statistics are wrong because they’re based on definitions like this: > [@Proposed FBI UCR Revision for Definition of Rape](#): > > any kind of penetration of another person, regardless of gender, without the victim’s consent. Note that by this definition, forcible insertion of a victim’s penis into a rapist’s orifice without their consent isn’t included. It’s still better than the definition of rape the FBI has had since 1929 > [@Current FBI Rape Definition](#): > > “the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” By which definition, men couldn’t be considered part of FBI statistics at ALL. And yes, that’s the current definition, they didn’t decide to try and update it until June of this year, and the new definition hasn’t been accepted yet. Of course, the thing that MRAs fail to mention is that feminist groups were kind of the ones lobbying the FBI to update the definition in the first place (albeit more because the old definition excluded things like raping an unconscious girl and things like oral rape or forced fingering than out of a concern for men). Of course, that’s only the FBI’s statistics. The reason I’m not convinced that women raping men is a grand problem is because I’ve never had a study quoted to me which uses a definition that includes envelopment and shows that men are raped by women a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/126 "2012-12-13T01:44:37Z")
\*\*Modern Master: \*\* > [@](#): > > Women need to make consent very clear. And men need to make sure that they actually do get consent, and not just assume that their partner is OK with something. > [@billfish678](#): > > Somewhere between 10 and 50 percent of rape claims appear to be false if you believe some of the stats and cites above. Apply that stat to the number of women reporting rape and thats a good number of men being falsely accussed. Uncommon perhaps? Yes IMO. Rare? No IMO. Extremely rare? Definite nope. There are also the stories about women who are disbelieved when they file rape charges, and this only comes out when the rapist strikes again. So, I’d say that those stats are suspect, and some of the rape claims that are put into the “false accusation” category are, in fact, real rapes, they were just disbelieved. In many cases, the VICTIM actually has charges filed against her for making false accusations. [http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/breaking/rape-victims-lawsuit-dismissed-336405/](http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/breaking/rape-victims-lawsuit-dismissed-336405/) > **[Bill Lueders](https://billlueders.com/)** There’s also a real problem in colleges, where rape victims are pressured to use the college judicial system, instead of taking it to the real cops. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124111931&ps=rs](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124111931&ps=rs) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/127 "2012-12-13T01:47:47Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > OTOH, I would know that if I got some booty that night and SVU was knocking on my door the next morning my life might very likely go to shit (at the very least short term if not nearly permanently). Kinda, except that’s basically what did happen to me and (fortunately, I had a witness–ladies, if you ever get the urge to pounce on someone to get physical evidence to bolster your fake rape claim, don’t do so when the guy’s roommate is awake in the same room no matter HOW hard it is to see him on the loft) it didn’t really send my life to shit all that hard. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/128 "2012-12-13T02:00:39Z")
> [@Modern\_Master](#): > > You should. Here’s why: > > [Cite](http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/) > > From the article: > > Bolding mine > > Bolding mine Those statistics may be true, but they don’t change what I said. There is zero chance that I would be falsely accused of rape, because of my particular circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/129 "2012-12-13T02:02:12Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Those statistics may be true, but they don’t change what I said. There is zero chance that I would be falsely accused of rape, because of my particular circumstances. You raped me! Oh… you meant **serious** false accusations of rape. Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/130 "2012-12-13T02:06:38Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > [There’s also a real problem in colleges, where rape victims are pressured to use the college judicial system, instead of taking it to the real cops. > > [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124111931&ps=rs](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124111931&ps=rs) Oh yeah, thats definitely a problem and IMO a bullshit way to deal with rape reports. But back the false accusation business. Lets face it, some small but not very small percent of people are just immoral, or sociopaths, stupid/vindictive, live in their own made up world, or just plain batshit crazy. The kind of people who wouldn’t have much of a problem doing something like making a false rape report. So, of the top of my head, I’d say somewhere between 1 and 10 percent of women fit somewhere in that category. Now, lets go with the 1 percent. Then consider that plenty of actual rapes are unreported. So, lets double the false rape to 2 percent. Interesting, a quick review of Wikipedia seems to back up that 2 percent as a lower but plausible number. They also note that about 200,000 rapes are reported. So, out of that something like 4000 of those could easily be false allegations. Thats 4000 men per year that are getting screwed so to speak. IIRC, the number of people dieing per year in car accidents is in the 20-30,0000 range. Half that for the men doing the car dieing. That means as a man, you are less likely to be accused of rape than dieing in a car accident by something like a factor of 2 to 4 say. Not something to worry about every day but on the otherhand not something rare like being struck by lightning or getting attacked by a shark either. If we go with those numbers and further assume a guy has about a 30 year window of being accused of rape that means the average man has about a 1 in 1000 chance of being falsely accused during his lifetime. Yeah, thats small odds compared to chances of innocent women dealing with a rape/attempted rape, but OTOH, IMO it aint “rare” or “extremely rare” as some others seem to think. And given that IMO the rate could be about 10 times higher than that, making it more like 1 in a 100, means that “worrying” about being falsely accused of rape is not an irrational thing for men to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/131 "2012-12-13T02:08:18Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Those statistics may be true, but they don’t change what I said. There is zero chance that I would be falsely accused of rape, because of my particular circumstances. Good for you. I don’t ride motorcycles so I have zero chance of dying on one. Whats your point? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/132 "2012-12-13T02:13:55Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Kinda, except that’s basically what did happen to me and (fortunately, I had a witness–ladies, if you ever get the urge to pounce on someone to get physical evidence to bolster your fake rape claim, don’t do so when the guy’s roommate is awake in the same room no matter HOW hard it is to see him on the loft) it didn’t really send my life to shit all that hard. So, you only have intimate contact with women, whether wanted or not, when you have witnesses. I hear that is all the rage with men and women these days. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/133 "2012-12-13T03:15:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, you only have intimate contact with women, whether wanted or not, when you have witnesses. I hear that is all the rage with men and women these days. Any man falsely accused of rape was clearly asking for it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/134 "2012-12-13T03:27:16Z")
Good one 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/135 "2012-12-13T05:51:51Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, you only have intimate contact with women, whether wanted or not, when you have witnesses. I hear that is all the rage with men and women these days. That’s not what I said at all. It’s so far proven 100% effective merely to not sleep with ex-girlfriends with emotional problems. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/136 "2012-12-13T14:45:33Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > It’s from the First Lady’s Conference on Domestic Violence in El Savador. She mentions it for all of 5 seconds. The general idea (from all 2-3 sentences about it) seems to be that men die, so they don’t suffer, where women have to live with the memories of their lost loved ones. Though given the context of the speech, methinks there may have been a little bit of crowd pandering in there. Not to mention just beforehand she mentions how former enemies (male soldiers) were embracing and helping to rebuild ghost towns into flourishing communities, so there’s not exactly a seething bottle of misandry there. I’m sure she was pandering, but that’s the point. I’ve got nothing against Hillary personally, she seems like a standard politician, she’s not the font of misandry, she’s just responding to prevailing cultural mores, and those are the problem. Those make it acceptable for her to say what she said but not, say, men are the primary victims of rape: equally nonsensical but not as widely acceptable. > [@suranyi](#): > > I don’t know about that. I realize that they exist, but I don’t worry about them. There is zero chance that I personally would be accused, and very very little chance that anyone I know would be either. That implies that those who are wrongly accused could avoid being wrongly accused by risk-minimising behaviours. Victim-blamer, you. Most wrongful accusations seem to come from those who are mentally disturbed, and plenty are cases of misidentification. Anyone can be wrongly accused, as anyone can be raped. Some things can make you less likely to be the victim, but not make you completely safe. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really? > > I’ve never met any IRL. It’s only online that I’ve met men terrified of getting falsely accused of rape. Isn’t it standard practice for men who work with children to avoid being alone in closed room with lone children? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/137 "2012-12-13T14:58:10Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > \*\*Modern Master: \*\* And men need to make sure that they actually do get consent, and not just assume that their partner is OK with something. I have to disagree. Why is it assumed that a man must pursue sex and a woman must be persuaded and then “consent”? Why is a man just assumed to be consenting? Frankly if I was engaged in sexual activity I would assume all parties were willing. If one party is not consenting then they can’t expect the other party to be a mind reader. That’s just what the OP was talking about, a woman is consenting or at least acquiescing during the sex act, then later decides she didn’t want it after all and her partner should have known that. > [@](#): > > There are also the stories about women who are disbelieved when they file rape charges, and this only comes out when the rapist strikes again. So, I’d say that those stats are suspect, and some of the rape claims that are put into the “false accusation” category are, in fact, real rapes, they were just disbelieved. In many cases, the VICTIM actually has charges filed against her for making false accusations. Most studies of false accusations are very strict about that and don’t just assume all unproven or even disproven accusations are false. The Kanin study, for example, only counted those the accusers explicitly recanted as false accusations. Not those that were disproven, or where the accuser simply didn’t want to pursue charges, but only explicit disavowals. > [@](#): > > There’s also a real problem in colleges, where rape victims are pressured to use the college judicial system, instead of taking it to the real cops. As a non American I find it bizarre that colleges have their own judicial systems. I often see MRAs complaining about them because of the “Dear Colleague” letter, so-called, so I think putting rape cases through proper police procedure is something feminists and MRAs could agree on. Both seem like colleges just trying to save themselves trouble, to me. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/138 "2012-12-13T16:25:37Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > That implies that those who are wrongly accused could avoid being wrongly accused by risk-minimising behaviours. Victim-blamer, you. Most wrongful accusations seem to come from those who are mentally disturbed, and plenty are cases of misidentification. As with the comparison to suggestions about mugging, risk-minimizing advice is useful when discussing situations by which someone can make meaningful and small changes to avoid being victimized (“leave your expensive stuff at home or don’t flash it” works, “don’t sleep with people you don’t trust” works) and it is victim-blaming when discussing situations where someone cannot do so (“Wear less slutty clothing” does not work, “don’t go out to bars/after dark” is not a small change) > [@](#): > > Isn’t it standard practice for men who work with children to avoid being alone in closed room with lone children? Speaking as the owner/operator of a lone female child, I have never once seen a “No males may be alone with a child” policy in place, only a “No staff member may be alone with a child” or no policy at all. One occasionally hears such sexist things from paranoid parents, but it’s not anything like a standard in these here parts. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/139 "2012-12-13T19:19:45Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Good for you. I don’t ride motorcycles so I have zero chance of dying on one. Whats your point? I was replying to the poster who categorically said that every man is very worried about being falsely accused of rape. The point is that I’m saying that’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/140 "2012-12-13T19:46:08Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Those statistics may be true, but they don’t change what I said. There is zero chance that I would be falsely accused of rape, because of my particular circumstances. Oh really? :dubious: I suppose it would be a TOS violation to falsely accuse you of raping me right in this thread, for the purpose of making the point that you don’t even have to know someone or have met someone to be falsely accused of rape. Those who cry rape when none occurred seem to play fast and loose with facts anyway, so. I could also falsely accuse you of robbing my house. My house hasn’t even been robbed… but why should that stop me from falsely accusing someone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341.md?page=8)