# Is it time women took some responsibility for sex? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341 "2012-12-07T20:20:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/141 "2012-12-13T20:16:55Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Most studies of false accusations are very strict about that and don’t just assume all unproven or even disproven accusations are false. The Kanin study, for example, only counted those the accusers explicitly recanted as false accusations. Not those that were disproven, or where the accuser simply didn’t want to pursue charges, but only explicit disavowals. I am afraid that is not so. The studies you speak of actually vary widely in the methodology and definitions used to determine falsity, and simply cannot be taken in aggregate to be a measure of a single parameter. The Kanin study you mentioned is actually a particularly poor effort and consists solely of statistics compiled in 1993 from the 1978-1984 archives of an anonymous police precinct. No protocol, no blinding, not even anything that you can properly call an experiment, and nobody can even verify the results. All it shows is that police polygraph interrogations are a good way to get alleged rape victims to retract their accusations. In and of itself, this tells us absolutely nothing about the veracity of those allegations. Have you any better examples? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/142 "2012-12-13T20:21:54Z")
> [@colander](#): > > All it shows is that police polygraph interrogations are a good way to get alleged rape victims to retract their accusations. In and of itself, this tells us absolutely nothing about the veracity of those allegations. “Absolutely nothing”? Really? Don’t you think it’s, maybe, just a little bit suggestive of something? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/143 "2012-12-13T20:26:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “Absolutely nothing”? Really? Don’t you think it’s, maybe, just a little bit suggestive of something? That victims are easily intimidated into retracting by authority figures? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/144 "2012-12-13T20:32:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “Absolutely nothing”? Really? Don’t you think it’s, maybe, just a little bit suggestive of something? That non-replicable, anonymously-sourced data is not really proof of anything useful? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/145 "2012-12-13T20:34:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That victims are easily intimidated into retracting by authority figures? OK, we’re getting somewhere. But you may have skipped a word. (S)he didn’t say “police interrogations”, but “police polygraph interrogations”. Now what is it about polygraphs that might make someone retract their accusation? ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/146 "2012-12-13T20:43:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, we’re getting somewhere. But you may have skipped a word. (S)he didn’t say “police interrogations”, but “police polygraph interrogations”. Now what is it about polygraphs that might make someone retract their accusation? Because they’re (seen as) unreliable and if it were to ‘show’ they were lying it would make things even more difficult for them? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/147 "2012-12-13T20:46:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, we’re getting somewhere. But you may have skipped a word. (S)he didn’t say “police interrogations”, but “police polygraph interrogations”. Now what is it about polygraphs that might make someone retract their accusation? The facts that they are easily falsified or misread, and are often used as tools of intimidation by authority figures? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/148 "2012-12-13T20:48:35Z")
That’s one possiblity. In fact, I’m sure there are some cases of this happening. But to me - and frankly this seems to be a widely shared sentiment, AFAICT - if someone makes an accusation and suddenly retracts that accusation when faced with the prospect of taking a polygraph test, that suggests an increased likelihood that this person is lying and knows it. (Among other things, ISTM that the public at large assumes that polygraphs are more accurate than they actually are.) And if a certain class of accusation shows a tendency for accusers to retract in the face of polygraphs, then that suggests that this class has a tendency to false accusations. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/149 "2012-12-13T20:49:13Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Because they’re (seen as) unreliable and if it were to ‘show’ they were lying it would make things even more difficult for them? Or they measure stress as lying and, funny thing, a woman taking about being raped is often stressed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/150 "2012-12-13T21:20:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, we’re getting somewhere. But you may have skipped a word. (S)he didn’t say “police interrogations”, but “police polygraph interrogations”. Now what is it about polygraphs that might make someone retract their accusation? You must be referring to the fact that polygraphs are very good tools of intimidation. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/151 "2012-12-13T21:29:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s one possiblity. In fact, I’m sure there are some cases of this happening. > > But to me - and frankly this seems to be a widely shared sentiment, AFAICT - if someone makes an accusation and suddenly retracts that accusation when faced with the prospect of taking a polygraph test, that suggests an increased likelihood that this person is lying and knows it. (Among other things, ISTM that the public at large assumes that polygraphs are more accurate than they actually are.) And if a certain class of accusation shows a tendency for accusers to retract in the face of polygraphs, then that suggests that this class has a tendency to false accusations. YMMV. It would be more instructive (although not definitive, given the unusual emotional weight that accompanies sex crimes in our society) to compare the rate of polygraph-induced accusation retractions across different crimes. That is not what this study did, however. The study says that the police precinct in question had a policy of always interrogating alleged victims of rape. There is no indication that civilians alleging any other crime were subjected to this procedure. Indeed, such a blanket policy would be very unusual, as interrogation is an onerous, time intensive and emotionally draining task for both the subject and the interrogators. Because of this, police typically only resort to it when they think the subject is lying. It is not routinely used to determine the veracity of accusations of, say, theft or assault, although it is sometimes used when officers are particularly uninterested in investigating a serious complaint that they would technically otherwise be legally obligated to pursue. So what the study says to me is that from 1978-1986, officers of this precinct were very much predisposed to disbelieving any accusations of rape that came to their attention. Frankly, this says more about society’s automatic distrust of rape accusations in that time period than it does about the general honesty of accusers. I would venture to guess that in 2012, this precinct’s treatment of rape accusers probably no longer includes polygraphs as a matter of course. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/152 "2012-12-13T21:33:24Z")
Or maybe that the very act of putting a victim under a polygraph indicates you don’t believe her story. When you go to the authorities to report a crime and the first thing they do is accuse you indirectly of lying, I’d imagine many people’s first thought to be something along the lines of “fuck this, they’re not even taking me seriously”. Why would you have any faith in the police at that point to pursue your case? Is it common with other crimes to put the victim under a polygraph just to make sure they’re not lying, or just rape victims? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/153 "2012-12-13T21:54:20Z")
Polygraphs are stupid, but shouldn’t it be the case that the police don’t believe your story? Not just with rape, but shouldn’t police approach any crime with the view that it didn’t happen until evidence gathered in the investigation proves otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/154 "2012-12-13T22:14:02Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Polygraphs are stupid, but shouldn’t it be the case that the police don’t believe your story? Not just with rape, but shouldn’t police approach any crime with the view that it didn’t happen until evidence gathered in the investigation proves otherwise? And if they don’t believe it happened, what’s their motivation for looking for evidence? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/155 "2012-12-13T22:23:40Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Polygraphs are stupid, but shouldn’t it be the case that the police don’t believe your story? Not just with rape, but shouldn’t police approach any crime with the view that it didn’t happen until evidence gathered in the investigation proves otherwise? No. The police are supposed to gather evidence that a crime occurred. They’re not the ones you have to convince that the crime occurred, that’s called a “jury”. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/156 "2012-12-13T22:29:11Z")
I disagree, it’s bad practice to investigate _anything_, be it science or crime coming in thinking what you’re investigating is true. You should start off assuming nothing happened. Obviously reporter testimony is evidence too, but they need to think critically, not just assume their investigation is meant to corroborate testimony. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/157 "2012-12-13T22:34:58Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Polygraphs are stupid, but shouldn’t it be the case that the police don’t believe your story? Not just with rape, but shouldn’t police approach any crime with the view that it didn’t happen until evidence gathered in the investigation proves otherwise? Certainly, police should not be automatically convinced of the guilt of every person ever accused of committing a crime. But in the absence of any immediate evidence that an alleged crime did not actually occur (“Sir, that brown object in your back pocket looks an awful lot like the wallet you reported stolen.”), I don’t think the public would be well served by a police force whose default assumption regarding every crime report is that “it didn’t happen.” In any case, I would expect the police to perform at least a cursory questioning of all persons associated with the case before running polygraphs on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/158 "2012-12-13T22:36:59Z")
Because, if they go in believing it is false they are doing the defense’s job for them. They operate along side the prosecution, who assumes a crime has been committed and gathers evidence to justify an arrest and subsequent conviction. They should not depend on the public to have to bring a case to them, completed already. That’s why they investigate when a complaint is made. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/159 "2012-12-13T22:37:20Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I disagree, it’s bad practice to investigate _anything_, be it science or crime coming in thinking what you’re investigating is true. You should start off assuming nothing happened. Obviously reporter testimony is evidence too, but they need to think critically, not just assume their investigation is meant to corroborate testimony. I’m not sure whether this is just a semantic misunderstanding or what. But generally speaking, if you go to the cops to report a crime and the cops think you’re lying, they don’t put much effort into investigation. You understand that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341/160 "2012-12-13T22:49:21Z")
The police should probably believe that you believe what you’re saying, but suspend whether or not what you’re saying is objective truth pending investigation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-time-women-took-some-responsibility-for-sex/643341.md?page=9)