I can’t think of a single major point we agreed on.
No, I was “sensitive” to your spreading of factual inaccuracies.
True enough.
Well, of republicanism – he didn’t like the word “democracy” or self-ID’d “democrats.” But the point remains, he could have made himself king, but didn’t.
No, but it would not be irrelevant to ask why Poland and Belarus are so different.
Yeah, all those citations were a real bummer! :rolleyes:
If you want to play political analogies here, I’d say the notion
Poland is to Belarus as Zimbabwe is to South Africa
is retarded with a capital stupid.
Just like with your Libya/Egypt/ME threads, you’re going to have to realize that not all (insert religious or geographical category here) are the same.
South Africa may be corrupt and sometimes weak, but it’s not Zimbabwe. (And who calls Zimbabwe “Rhodesia” anymore?)
A whole lot of expats, IME.
Asking whether SA will fall apart as spectacularly as Zimbabwe might distract from the more relevant question of just how stable, prosperous, democratic, and safe SA will remain in the coming decades.
That’s a legitimate question, no? Full democracy is scarcely a generation old. Every time I check out the headlines from the country there’s something worrisome: the startling rise (and, happily, apparent fall) of Julius Malema, the AIDS epidemic, unemployment, attacks on freedom of the press, rolling blackouts… It’s not crazy to wonder how well the country can hold together (while certainly hoping that it does).
I figure any new democracy will have growing pains, just from trying to do things a whole new way that’s outside everyone’s experience to date, and a way much more complicated and challenging than any other. America had them too. So did all the post-Communist states of eastern Europe. We can’t reasonably expect near-term stability and harmony in the countries whose dictatorships were overthrown in the Arab Spring – look at what Libya’s going through right now – but the revolutions were still worth having.
Three words:
Madam and Eve.
You mean all those ones I addressed in that thread, and showed to be out of touch with the reality of the country? Those citations?
MrDibble and Farmer Jane, take your bickering over a previous thread to e-mail, PM, or The BBQ Pit but stop rehashing it here.
[ /Moderating ]
I find a person’s reasoning crazy only if after they rest from complaining about Malema/Zuma, AIDS, free press, Unemployment, etc they start praising South Africa, Apartheid-era.
“OMG!!! Things are apocalyptic!!!..since the ANC took over. Before that, things were just hunky-dory. Yep, no problems with any of those aforementioned issues…”
South Africa has always had these serious problems and the ANC can be judged for tackling them ineptly, but at least they are acknowledging/addressing them; they are also fully accountable any failures/stumbles they make. This alone is head and shoulders above all other previous governments. Some of which actively fostered a lot of the social and economic problems that South Africa must deal with to this day.
Are you also saying I shouldn’t reference posts made in that thread on this exact same topic? Or is that still OK? Because I basically said everything I could want to say before.
I am saying that the two of you will quit bickering and making this personal. If there is a point of fact or logic that has appeared in earlier threads that applies equally well to this thread, feel free to post it. Do not, however, (either of you), continue with comments noting that you have already made or refuted similar points in earlier threads, particularly by way of taking a shot at the other poster.
[ /Moderating ]
And so did France. It took almost a hundred years for things to calm down after the Revolution. (TLDR: QFT.)
I am a white South African male in my forties and have lived in both the “old” and the “new” South Africa and I personally get very annoyed with people who have idoitic opinions about SA going the way of Zimbabwe.
I have travelled and worked extensively in Africa and Europe and there is no other country I would rather be in than SA, This is not out of some misplaced sense of patriotism but simply a realisation that this country has so many opportunities for both Black and White (and other) people. I am very happy here and have no intention of moving in the near future nor expect to have any reason to do so. I see white people around me all the time so I doubt they have ALL moved out of the country.
Comparing SA with Zimbabwe is like asking whether Italy will go the way of Zimbabwe. The chances are about the same, I think. Italy has always had a fairly corrupt system and is practically bankrupt. It is certainly possible, in the sense that anything is possible, but it is unlikely.
I’m not going to rehash all the arguments again but will just say that we have a very robust economy and politial system in place right now and only a few idiots on the fringes have any fears that we will end up like Zim.
There is a certain kind of conservative – over here, I mean – who actually seems to regret the fall of Apartheid. I recall reading at least one article on SA in Pat Buchanan’s magazine The American Conservative that actually seemed to be trying to make a case that ending Apartheid was a bad idea in hindsight. It even quoted a couple of black SAs who missed the old days of law and order (it’s never all that hard to find some people who miss the old days, whatever they were like; it would not have been all that hard, back in the day, to find a few American ex-slaves who missed slavery, when they never had to think about what to do next and there was always somebody around who had to feed them).
There will always be some nitwits who yearn for the “good old days”. There are certainly a lot here as well. The reality is though, I have not seen or met any white people who’s standard of living has declined dramatically but I have met many black people who’s standards have increased dramatically. This is a good thing.
Of course there are some subjective differences between the old regime and the new. The most noticeable is the crime. But as has been mentioned that is steadily improving and it is getting better all the time.
This is partly because they (conservatives, I mean - Reagan etc.) spent so much effort in actively propping it up.
Common sense tells me it’d be quite dishonest to present “Apartheid nostalgia” as anything other then fringe within the black South African community. A publication which doesn’t make this VERY CLEAR when reporting on a topic seems highly untrustworthy (and probably fringe itself).