# Is It Trolling to Try to Get Another Poster to Break the Rules? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 31, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395 "2011-10-31T17:24:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/21 "2011-11-02T04:15:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Marley** : And I don’t think I’ve ever moderated “you are a racist” as a personal insult. If you think that it is not a personal insult, you surely weren’t raised by folks I know. I didn’t realize that there was such a cultural divide on this within the States. It is definitely an insult when someone makes that comment to you in the Western and Middle sections of Tennessee. I am less familiar with the more conservative Eastern Tennessee. I don’t mean to make too much of this, but it is as if you had said that you didn’t moderate “You molest children” as a personal insult. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/22 "2011-11-02T04:23:46Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > If you think that it is not a personal insult, you surely weren’t raised by folks I know. No, I wasn’t. Many people take exception to being called racist and I’m not disputing that, but my point is that it’s a personal comment that can also be descriptive of a point of view and is not unambiguously insulting, as compared to calling a person an idiot, which is an outright insult. I don’t want to get too far into splitting hairs here because I’m not sure anybody else even cares what term I use for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/23 "2011-11-02T13:30:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I wasn’t. Many people take exception to being called racist and I’m not disputing that, but my point is that it’s a personal comment that can also be descriptive of a point of view and is not unambiguously insulting, as compared to calling a person an idiot, which is an outright insult. Eh. I don’t have any feelings about the moderation in question, but I’m a bit startled to see _this_ claim. I’m of the opinion that people can be idiots as factually and unambiguously as they can be racists. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/24 "2011-11-02T14:17:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …and is not unambiguously insulting, as compared to calling a person an idiot, which is an outright insult. Can you imagine a reasonable person who would not be offended at being called a racist? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/25 "2011-11-02T14:43:48Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > Technically, you’re misstating [modus tollens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens). You’re mistakenly [affirming the consequent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent), which is an invalid form of modus tollens. (The only logical “inverse” of modus tollens is [~_q_ \> ~_p_], but that’s not what you expressed here.) > > The statement [If ~_p_ \> ~_q_]\* is true IF AND ONLY IF no other causal factor can give rise to _q_. It might be the case, for example, that _j_ might also give rise to _q_, in which case, _q_ could still be the case, even in the absence of _p_. In other words, ~_p_ actually has nothing to say about _q_ being or not being the case. Oh god, head hurts. Can’t we just fling implied feces like we always do, without all this algebra stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/26 "2011-11-02T15:40:27Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > Can you imagine a reasonable person who would not be offended at being called a racist? Just because a comment offends someone doesn’t make it an insult. I’ve seen people on the SDMB aver that they either don’t care about being called a racist or that they admit they’re racist. I don’t consider those people particularly reasonable, but that’s my personal opinion. Calling another poster a racist is discouraged in GD because it’s a comment about the person making the argument and not the strengths or weaknesses of the argument. I’m saying I wouldn’t call it an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/27 "2011-11-02T16:35:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Just because a comment offends someone doesn’t make it an insult. I’ve seen people on the SDMB aver that they either don’t care about being called a racist or that they admit they’re racist. I don’t consider those people particularly reasonable, but that’s my personal opinion. Calling another poster a racist is discouraged in GD because it’s a comment about the person making the argument and not the strengths or weaknesses of the argument. I’m saying I wouldn’t call it an insult. This came up a little over a year ago but we got different answers then. > **[Calling someone racist is a personal insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559352)** > > It seems that some people on this board are not cognizant of this. It should be quite obvious to anyone who knows what a personal insult is. You’ve just called someone an insulting name. I’d rather be called a cunt, as that just means you’re mad at... > [@Calling someone racist is a personal insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-racist-is-a-personal-insult/535802/7): > > Describing an idea as racist would be allowed, but using it against another poster wouldn’t be allowed outside of the Pit. > [@Calling someone racist is a personal insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-racist-is-a-personal-insult/535802/8): > > If directed at another poster in GQ, who did not self-identify as a racist, I would regard it as a personal insult and probably issue at least a moderator note to dial it back. Someone who made a habit of it would probably receive a warning. > [@Calling someone racist is a personal insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-racist-is-a-personal-insult/535802/9): > > It’s OK to be a racist, and it’s permitted to argue a racist point of view. However, posters engaging in debate on the subject should address the racist nature of the arguments and statements themselves, rather than call the poster a racist. You may call the idea racist; you should refrain from calling the poster racist outside the Pit. Based on this change is it now official that saying “You are a racist” to another poster is no longer considered a personal insult? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/28 "2011-11-02T17:11:14Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > This came up a little over a year ago but we got different answers then. You’re getting the same answer. It’s a personal comment and it’s disouraged. I don’t consider it an _insult_ and **tomndebb** has described it that way, but whether you call it an insult or just a personal comment, it’s not something we want posters to say about each other. Me, in the April 2010 thread: > [@Calling someone racist is a personal insult](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-racist-is-a-personal-insult/535802/7): > > Describing an idea as racist would be allowed, but using it against another poster wouldn’t be allowed outside of the Pit. Me, from a few months ago: > [@TubaDiva, you may have missed this.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubadiva-you-may-have-missed-this/595421/41): > > Again, **magellan01** , calling someone “racist” is a personal comment and is discouraged, but it is not a personal insult. I’ve addressed this issue before. Just to muddy the waters, **tomndebb** does describe it as name calling in the posts I’m linking to. Me, in this thread: > [@Marley23](#): > > Calling another poster a racist is discouraged in GD because it’s a comment about the person making the argument and not the strengths or weaknesses of the argument. I’m saying I wouldn’t call it an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/29 "2011-11-02T17:21:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re getting the same answer. It’s a personal comment and it’s disouraged. I don’t consider it an _insult_ and **tomndebb** has described it that way, but whether you call it an insult or just a personal comment, it’s not something we want posters to say about each other. Maybe what I’m misinterpreting is the common qualifier in most quotes by mods on the subject about using the phrase “outside of The Pit”. I took that to mean implicitly “because it is a personal insult” as is the case with most things we say are unacceptable outside of The Pit. I suppose we could say The Pit is for personal insults and personal comments in general, but the two concepts seem to be inseparable for the purpose of defining the reason the statement has to be limited to The Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/30 "2011-11-02T17:25:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, he’s not, and no, you’re not. Not unless you’re posting in the Pit. In this post, you said calling someone a racist isn’t allowed. You kind of seem to be all over the palce here. You’re saying that it’s not a personal insult and not against the rules, but that it’s still not allowed? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/31 "2011-11-02T17:36:22Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I understand that Marley, but I still don’t see how it’s different from a “What do you think of the Repub Candidiates” thread where Gonzomax pops in to say “Anyone who votes republican is a bigoted racists!” > > I understand that the rules permit this-I don’t think they should, but they always have. How is the hypothetical above (and if you’d like, I’ll dig up non-hypothetical examples) of Gonzomax making off-topic, inflammatory comments different from what OMG did? That’s the part I’m not getting. Gee, it’s not popular to say so, but how about “rules are different for liberals versus conservatives”? On the same note…is it trolling to say someone is trolling? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/32 "2011-11-02T17:48:19Z")
I think this may be getting overly semantic and perhaps I shouldn’t have gotten into it here. Outside of the Pit, we discourage personal comments that people are likely to offend people or take the discussion in an unwanted direction. “Racist” is one of those. Personal comment yes, personal insult no. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Gee, it’s not popular to say so, but how about “rules are different for liberals versus conservatives”? That sentiment is very popular in some circles. Doesn’t make it true, though. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/33 "2011-11-02T17:55:01Z")
With the circular reasoning that goes on in ATMB, it will be whatever you want it to be. You didn’t answer my other q, though. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/34 "2011-11-02T17:56:59Z")
Accusations of trolling are treated as personal insults unless you’re in the Pit. Is it _trolling?_ Usually not, but it’s not allowed either. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/35 "2011-11-02T18:13:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Accusations of trolling are treated as personal insults unless you’re in the Pit. Is it _trolling?_ Usually not, but it’s not allowed either. [Really?!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14410396&postcount=11) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/36 "2011-11-02T18:20:33Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > [Really?!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14410396&postcount=11) Originally I wrote “or (possibly) ATMB” in that sentence and I see I shouldn’t have deleted it. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/37 "2011-11-02T18:24:33Z")
When you ask a question without context, you get a generic answer. It isn’t clever or useful to play that game. Report the post and let a moderator decide if it violated the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/38 "2011-11-02T18:39:25Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You didn’t answer my other q, though. p. 😃 So basically Marley is semantically parsing “insult”, and “racist” is the kind of term that has a meaningful use that also happens to be insulting to many people. So using it isn’t necessarily meaning to be an insult, because there’s a legitimate use, but it ends up being inflammatory and interpreted as an insult by the receiver, so it is best to avoid it, and will be moderated on the grounds of “address the argument, not the arguer”. That would be consistent with other uses here, such as “Your arguments are idiotic” vs “You are an idiot”, or “Those claims are not true” vs “You liar”. But Marley, I think most people would consider a personal comment intended to create ire to be an insult, regardless of whether there is some real applicable use of the label. COMING NEXT WEEK: Marley mods someone for calling someone a racist, and the offender starts a thread to justify the use on the grounds that racist has a legitimate meaning, and the person was expressing racist views. “How can we confront the issue of racism if we can’t confront the racists? Stop giving racists a free pass!” (I’m sure it’s been done, but I’m not searching for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/39 "2011-11-02T18:43:58Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I’m sure it’s been done, but I’m not searching for it. It’s definitely been done. The consensus - regardless of whether you want to be as nitpicky as I’m being about its status as an insult - is that we don’t want posters to call each other racists because it’s only going to derail the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395/40 "2011-11-02T19:27:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Oh god, head hurts. Can’t we just fling implied feces like we always do, without all this algebra stuff? Not algebra. Symbolic logic. And I just thought it worthwhile to correct a mistaken expression of symbolic logic. Fighting ignorance, and all that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-trolling-to-try-to-get-another-poster-to-break-the-rules/601395.md?page=3)