# Is It Unforgivable to Question Whether a Gay Actor Is Too Femme for a Role? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684 "2010-06-18T16:28:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/21 "2010-06-18T22:57:01Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The _Newsweek_ writer has issues. I’ll say. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/22 "2010-06-18T23:23:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > But is it wrong for a casting director (or an audience) to think, “Sorry, NOBODY could believe you in this role”? Before the audition? YES. After the audition/performance? NO. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/23 "2010-06-18T23:42:06Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > This isn’t such a great example. Just google “Eddie Brock” and look at the image results. The character is drawn with Schwartzenegger muscles, yet “rail thin” Topher Grace was cast. Well, yeah, but Rock Hudson wasn’t available. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/24 "2010-06-18T23:46:57Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Rhoda’s Jewishness was very much a part of the show, especially within the dynamics of the interaction with and psyche of her sister Brenda (the guilt, etc.) and Nancy Walker and Harold Gould, the quintessential Jewish parents, especially Walker. Although Harper herself was Catholic, the Jewish dynamic was about plot and behaviors (acting) which they all conveyed effectively. In the show _Rhoda_, which actually had those characters, yes. But, as far as I can remember, there really wasn’t any of that on _The Mary Tyler Moore Show_. Her parents showed up very infrequently\*, and she barely mentioned her brother and older sister (who disappeared in the spin-off.) \*[Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Mary_Tyler_Moore_Show_episodes#ep1) only lists their arrival as a plot point in one episode: the third season one where her mom thinks her dad is having an affair. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/25 "2010-06-18T23:50:39Z")
I could see not putting him high on the list, and thus he might miss out if the perfect guy gets found first. But not to completely deny him the ability to audition. Also, quite a lot of people thought he was straight on Will and Grace. Jack was just too campy. Still, if the guy judged this after seeing it, that means Hayes did not do a good enough job shaking off the typecasting, something that every actor is familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/26 "2010-06-18T23:58:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In the show _Rhoda_, which actually had those characters, yes. But, as far as I can remember, there really wasn’t any of that on _The Mary Tyler Moore Show_. Her parents showed up very infrequently\*, and she barely mentioned her brother and older sister (who disappeared in the spin-off.) > > \*[Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Mary_Tyler_Moore_Show_episodes#ep1) only lists their arrival as a plot point in one episode: the third season one where her mom thinks her dad is having an affair. You are correct. Not only did I jump from _The Mary Tyler Moore Show_ to _Rhoda_ (because I loved the show), Nancy Walker was in only 42 out of 110 episodes. It seemed like more because she was such a presence though. (_Bess, You Is My Daughter Now_? Hah!) > [@BigT](#): > > Still, if the guy judged this after seeing it, that means Hayes did not do a good enough job shaking off the typecasting, something that every actor is familiar with. Maybe it was less the effects of typecasting, and more because of the looking through the lenses of prior expectations and the self-hatred of the reviewer, especially since he says any gay man would fail playing a straight role. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/27 "2010-06-19T13:35:06Z")
Gay or not too many male stars in action roles are too “pretty” to be taken seriously . But for me this opens up the whole star system to question, especially as we have all too many line reciters rather then bona fide actors in movies and t.v. i.e. We see the same people undertaking the same roles in different films playing them pretty much the same in every movie rather then making us believe that they really are different characters. How many films have been spoiled by us seeing Harrison Ford up on the screen rather then I.J.s? or Sean Connery, instead of the person he’s supposed to be representing , Brad Pitt whatever. Lets have more anonymus people starring in films but who can actually act. At least that way we won’t know who is going to survive the whole film unscathed. I am not connected in any way to movies, tha stage or t.v. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/28 "2010-06-19T13:55:55Z")
The writer is seriously underestimating audiences’ ability to suspend disbelief. As long as the actor is acting, rather than repeatedly playing themselves, the audience can cope. I mean, it’s not like we think they’re actually in love - we know it’s all pretend! FWIW, re the OP’s Al Bundy/King Lear reference, there’s an actor here called Lenny Henry who was really well-known as a comedian who created over-the-top caricatures. He later played several serious roles including a very well-received Othello. I know there have been several other well-known comic or non-serious actors who’ve then gone on to acclaim in really serious stage roles - I’m trying to pull their names out of my aching head; the general point is that audiences are actually more than willing to accept funny people playing it straight. And if theatre audiences weren’t willing to accept gay actors playing it straight then their choice of shows to see would dwindle considerably! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/29 "2010-06-19T17:00:05Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Maybe it was less the effects of typecasting, and more because of the looking through the lenses of prior expectations and the self-hatred of the reviewer, especially since he says any gay man would fail playing a straight role. I don’t think he’s quite making that point; he apparently thinks Rock Hudson worked perfectly as the brawny leading man plainspokenly doing his level best to get the girl – until the secret came out years later, which only makes the big guy fail in straight roles _ **retroactively** _. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/30 "2010-06-19T19:51:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t think he’s quite making that point; he apparently thinks Rock Hudson worked perfectly as the brawny leading man plainspokenly doing his level best to get the girl – until the secret came out years later, which only makes the big guy fail in straight roles _ **retroactively** _. Granted that might be true, how do you explain the set-up in the other direction? Kelsey Grammer in _La Cage Aux Folles_, Tom Hanks in _Philadelphia_, the whole _Priscilla, Queen of the Desert_ trio. If those are deigned to have worked, then his whole premise regarding anyone playing someone they’re not tells me there is obviously something else going on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/31 "2010-06-19T20:23:58Z")
I don’t see an actor’s sexual orientation or religion being an issue. To me, there are three valid considerations: 1 - Does the acter fit within the physical parameters of the role? 2 - Is the actor capable of giving a credible performance as the character? 3 - Does the actor have a public image that’s so established it’ll overwhelm his performance? ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/32 "2010-06-19T23:23:27Z")
I think **astorian** you are being dishonest about what the article actually said - as has been illustrated by quotes already posted it was homophobic. This wasn’t about not being able to criticise gay actors when they play straight, ever, no matter how bad they are. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/33 "2010-06-20T00:36:55Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Granted that might be true, how do you explain the set-up in the other direction? Kelsey Grammer in _La Cage Aux Folles_, Tom Hanks in _Philadelphia_, the whole _Priscilla, Queen of the Desert_ trio. If those are deigned to have worked, then his whole premise regarding anyone playing someone they’re not tells me there is obviously something else going on. Don’t forget _Brokeback Mountain_, in which not only were the two leads straight in real life, but one (Heath Ledger) fell in love with his female co-star (Michelle Williams) during filming. By the time the film was in wide release they were not only publicly known as a couple, they’d already had a child together. But I don’t remember hearing anybody at the time say Ledger and Gyllenhaal were just too obviously hetero to be believable as romantic pair, or pointing out that Ledger’s on-screen chemistry with Williams was too good for it to be plausible that his character was really in love with another man. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/34 "2010-06-20T01:44:57Z")
[This video may or may not be relevant](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haMghffhJes). Sean Hayes is the guy on the left. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/35 "2010-06-20T11:51:43Z")
In threads like this, someone is bound to say “I had no idea he/she was/wasn’t gay/straight until now.” I had no idea Valerie Harper wasn’t Jewish until now. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/36 "2010-06-20T14:33:46Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > I think **astorian** you are being dishonest about what the article actually said - as has been illustrated by quotes already posted it was homophobic. > > This wasn’t about not being able to criticise gay actors when they play straight, ever, no matter how bad they are. And I “think” you are 100% wrong. If I were “dishonest,” why would I provide a link to EXACTLY what the Newsweek writer said? I repeat: it’s entirely possible that Sean Hayes was WONDERFUL in the role. I don’t know much about his range or his body of work as an actor. I was a theater buff when I lived in New York, and I have no doubt that I’ve seen MANY gay actors play straight roles (including romantic roles) perfectly convincingly. As I said, I could easily buy Rupert Everett in a dashing ladies man role. Paul Lynde? Charles Nelson Reilly? Not so much. And if someone HAD cast Paul Lynde in a romantic straight role, I don’t see why it would be wrong for a critic or audience member to sneer, “PLEASE!” I don’t know about Sean Hayes. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/37 "2010-06-20T16:15:28Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > And I “think” you are 100% wrong. If I were “dishonest,” why would I provide a link to EXACTLY what the Newsweek writer said? > > I repeat: it’s entirely possible that Sean Hayes was WONDERFUL in the role. I don’t know much about his range or his body of work as an actor. > > I was a theater buff when I lived in New York, and I have no doubt that I’ve seen MANY gay actors play straight roles (including romantic roles) perfectly convincingly. > > As I said, I could easily buy Rupert Everett in a dashing ladies man role. Paul Lynde? Charles Nelson Reilly? Not so much. > > And if someone HAD cast Paul Lynde in a romantic straight role, I don’t see why it would be wrong for a critic or audience member to sneer, “PLEASE!” > > I don’t know about Sean Hayes. I don’t think you were dishonest, but you are presenting the article, and the negative response to it, as if it were just about this particular actor possibly being too feminine, when it’s actually about gay actors\* in general\* not being good for straight roles. Looking Paul Lynde up, it seems that he was cast in some straight romantic roles too. Presumably he didn’t use that Sylvester Sneakly voice for those roles - he’s an actor. BTW, have you ever heard of Eddie Izzard? Check out his acting career. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/38 "2010-06-20T16:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW, have you ever heard of Eddie Izzard? Check out his acting career. While Izzard likes to wear women’s clothes, he is not gay. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/39 "2010-06-20T17:08:39Z")
Not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course. Wearing women’s clothes, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684/40 "2010-06-20T17:50:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > While Izzard likes to wear women’s clothes, he is not gay. Most of the time he’s an extremely camp transvestite comedian, the sort that the OP would apparently expect audiences to not want in a serious role. However, he has played serious roles that are completely at odds with his usual stage persona. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-unforgivable-to-question-whether-a-gay-actor-is-too-femme-for-a-role/543684.md?page=3)