Is it worth it to install solar panels

[lingyi]

@Scoobysnax

We just finished putting solar on our house this week. We live in Southern California where it is hot and sunny most of the year. We run the AC a lot, have a pool, and an electric car so our electric bill is/was pushing $300/month. With the tax rebates we expect to break even in 6-7 years.

I would be surprised if solar didn’t add to the value of the homes down here. It would at least make it easier to sell.

Solar panels have a “usable” efficiency lifespan of ~20-30 years (which is why warranties are roughly that long). I say “usable” because their efficiency drops by ~1% per year https://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/7475/What-Is-the-Lifespan-of-a-Solar-Panel.aspx, so after 30 years, you’re at ~70% of the original output vs rising electric costs.

Add in that the inverters and wiring may need replacement at the end of the warranty period, plus the panels not being easily upgraded due to different panel and rack mount sizes. There’s also the potential of roof leaks through the hundreds of mounting holes required to install the racks.

I worked in accounting or two solar companies and heard numerous stories from salespeople of customers complaining about leaks or cancelling their installation because they found out that installing the panels actually reduced their home resale value (which is still ridiculously high in Hawaii), because of the future replacement/repair costs and diminishing return. Note that these are things the salesperson usually would never tell you when doing their pitch.

[lingyi]

A bit off topic, but when we sold our family home a few years ago, our solar water heater system which was 30+ years old actually reduced our sales price (don’t know how much, just was told it did by my sister) because it was outdated. It still worked fine because there’s no moving parts in the panels themselves, but it was considered a negative because of its age and potential for leaks, both in the mounts and plumbing (fortunately it’s over the garage closet).

[Mangosteen]

@filmore

Some concerns I’d have about panels in NJ would be how much energy would hit the panels because of it’s northerly location, and snow covering the panels during the winter. Panels in the south are productive all year long. They get more direct sunlight and don’t get covered by snow in the winter. Make sure you find out the typical payback period of panels for people in your area.

I get the feeling that panels really only make sense for people who are doing it for environmental reasons rather than cost savings. The long payback period means there’s lots of time for things to go wrong that would incur maintenance costs. The panels could fail, could break from storm damage, roof repairs become more complicated, etc. All those things will extend the payback period, or even mean that the panels never recoup their cost.

“environmental reasons”??? The manufacturing process for solar panels is far from “Green”. (Check out various articles on the web.) Also the fact is that the panels last only a limited amount of years makes their disposal an environmental problem as well. Hopefully in the near future, science will come up with a solar panel that can be manufactured in a more environmentally friendly way and can be recycled, but today, not so much.

[Hari_Seldon]

What exit What Exit? My wife grew up in Salem, exit 1, which will get significantly more sunlight than exit 16.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@HurricaneDitka

…you’d probably want batter banks…

Mmmmmm, batter banks…
It’s hard to think of solar as not being “worth it”. It’s a way of putting electricity into the house that doesn’t have to rely on a utility company acting in good faith to maintain its infrastructure (like that would ever be a problem), or relying on politically unstable nations supplying us with predictably cheap fuel to run power plants (like that would ever be a problem), or relying on domestic fossil fuel mining companies to not imperil our water supply or land stability (like that would ever be a problem). On some level it’s ALWAYS worth it to source what you need from as close to your front door as feasible.

[What_Exit]

@Hari_Seldon

What exit What Exit? My wife grew up in Salem, exit 1, which will get significantly more sunlight than exit 16.

Central Jersey, close to 109 GSP.

[Heart_Full_of_Neutrality]

Tesla is now offering subscription solar in a few states, including New Jersey; you need to be a subscriber to one of four specific utilities listed on this website. It requires no long term contract, and comes in small (3.8kW), medium (7.6kW), or large (11.4kW) installations. Pricing at this time is 50 bucks per month for the small system in New Jersey. After it is installed, you can tell them to deactivate it at any time, and they will turn it off and leave the system in place. If you want them to remove the system from the roof, they’ll do that for you as well. When they offer this in my state, I’m going to jump on it.

[What_Exit]

@Inigo_Montoya

Mmmmmm, batter banks…
It’s hard to think of solar as not being “worth it”. It’s a way of putting electricity into the house that doesn’t have to rely on a utility company acting in good faith to maintain its infrastructure (like that would ever be a problem), or relying on politically unstable nations supplying us with predictably cheap fuel to run power plants (like that would ever be a problem), or relying on domestic fossil fuel mining companies to not imperil our water supply or land stability (like that would ever be a problem). On some level it’s ALWAYS worth it to source what you need from as close to your front door as feasible.

Clearly I am very pro solar power. I did it early and then added more later. But if you’re not expecting to be in the house at least 6 years, I would look for a company that gives you a discount on electric for put putting panels they own on your house.

In dryer, sunnier states the payback time should be better yet.

[Mangosteen]

@Inigo_Montoya

Mmmmmm, batter banks…
It’s hard to think of solar as not being “worth it”. It’s a way of putting electricity into the house that doesn’t have to rely on a utility company acting in good faith to maintain its infrastructure (like that would ever be a problem), or relying on politically unstable nations supplying us with predictably cheap fuel to run power plants (like that would ever be a problem), or relying on domestic fossil fuel mining companies to not imperil our water supply or land stability (like that would ever be a problem). On some level it’s ALWAYS worth it to source what you need from as close to your front door as feasible.

I am very much pro solar. My home here in Hawaii is completely off grid using solar panels for electricity with a propane back up generator (that has yet to come on because the solar panels have produced power rain (150 inches per year) or shine. The power is stored in the large bank of batteries. I very much enjoy and appreciated the fact that I can generate my own power and am independent from the local (very high priced) power company. (HELCO is an appropriate name.)

That being said, the panels come from far away China and the batteries come from a company on the mainland (USA). There are no local sources. Both the panels and batteries will wear out some day and their recycling will be problematic. And when the time comes, who knows what the availability and replacement costs will be.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Mangosteen

That being said, the panels come from far away China and the batteries come from a company on the mainland (USA). There are no local sources. Both the panels and batteries will wear out some day and their recycling will be problematic. And when the time comes, who knows what the availability and replacement costs will be.

Sounds like a matter of dancing with a demon you know is unreliable right now, or one that might be problematic someday. Easy choice if you ask me.

[markn_1]

My power will probably be shut off in the next few hours, my second PG&E shutoff in the last couple of weeks. So a solar system is suddenly looking more attractive to me. I like the PowerWall as a battery system but I haven’t done a lot of research into alternatives yet. My house generally uses less than 15 kWh per day, so I think a single PowerWall would suffice. I’ll probably be in this house long enough for the system to pay for itself, but that’s not the primary reason I’m thinking about it.

[Mangosteen]

@markn_1

My power will probably be shut off in the next few hours, my second PG&E shutoff in the last couple of weeks. So a solar system is suddenly looking more attractive to me. I like the PowerWall as a battery system but I haven’t done a lot of research into alternatives yet. My house generally uses less than 15 kWh per day, so I think a single PowerWall would suffice. I’ll probably be in this house long enough for the system to pay for itself, but that’s not the primary reason I’m thinking about it.

Check to see if it is legal for you to escape the California electric grid. I’ve heard that solar panels are, of course, legal, but you must stay connected to the central grid. And when the central grid is turned off, your power goes off, too.

[markn_1]

As I understand it, the Powerwall has a built-in transfer switch that disconnects you from the grid automatically when it senses grid power is out, then reconnects when grid power is on. Is that what you’re saying might be illegal? Powerwalls are certainly legal in California.

[Mangosteen]

@markn_1

As I understand it, the Powerwall has a built-in transfer switch that disconnects you from the grid automatically when it senses grid power is out, then reconnects when grid power is on. Is that what you’re saying might be illegal? Powerwalls are certainly legal in California.

Yes, I’m wondering if that auto transfer switch is legal in CA.

[What_Exit]

@Mangosteen

Yes, I’m wondering if that auto transfer switch is legal in CA.

They are in most places, whatever you heard is either specific to a few electric companies or more likely incorrect. The power companies do inspect the auto transfer switches.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@What_Exit

Part of the payback are SRECS, you get paid for the power you generate by companies. SRECs are pretty helpful.

One thing important to understand about SRECs is that while they are freely traded with market fluctuations, it’s an artificial market driven by government-created demand, with the long term price trends are entirely dependent on government policy. (The government requires the utilities to have a certain amount, and what they don’t produce by themselves they need to buy, which is the entire basis for the SREC market. The market price is based on the level of SREC requirements set by the state vs the amount of SRECs available from installations.) The purpose of government SREC policy is to encourage solar installations. At some point, it’s conceivable that the policy goals will be fully satisfied or otherwise changed, and the government will pull the plug.

Point being that you can’t rely on the current SREC prices in looking at the long term financial numbers. (At some point it was possible to lock in long term pricing - at lower than market rates - I’m not sure if this is still possible.)

[jdc]

I have a 32 Panel 8.32 KwH system installed on my house in MA in 2013.
SREC-1 incentive program, 4 years left to go. System sized to be 108% of my use.

I am also coordinating installation of a 146 panel 47.65 KwH PV array at my Church under a PPA which makes more sense for a non-profit where the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) of 30% is not available if Church did outright purchase.

Payback period projected by vendor was 5-6 years and that has proved accurate.
Also note that payback is not the same as return on investment. I should have no electric bills for the next 20 years or so, and SREC’s will continue beyond payback.

PS previous poster stated panels degrade 1% per year. My panel manufacturer has guarantee of no more than .7%. Not sure how I’d test this or collect on guarantee, but I am not sure that the flat 1% is fair assumption.

System has functioned perfectly. No leaks. Panels are on the back side of house, so the avalanches of snow in winter just thunder down onto deck and screen porch roof. If I parked cars under an array or had delicate shrubs or an entrance at risk, I’d consider snow guards at the eaves or integrated into the array.

I did not do battery system as nothing practical was available in 2013. Now you can get backup systems from several vendors and having a UPS for the entire house is attractive but you’d only have hours to a few days at most of power, depending on time of year and weather and your demand.

I’d recommend you get proposals from several PV vendors. They will know how the SREC and other incentive programs work in your state and you should find that their estimates of cost of your system, payback period, and what it will produce will be very similar. Their assumptions about SREC payments will be a big factor, so if they use different expected SREC payment values, push back and make them all use the same per MwH payment assumption. Some vendors in MA offered a pre-paid SREC flat amount, based on estimated PV of SREC money/discounted a bit for the risk and you should ask NJ companies if they offer the same arrangement.

The Solar Vendor we selected has its own (employees) installers and electricians, the only subcontractor was the plumber to move the vent pipe.

PV companies generally propose a design, give you a cost, and offer purchase, lease, and Purchased Power Agreement arrangements.

Under Purchase you get the ITC and the SREC . Under PPA the get the ITC and SREC
Not sure how they work leases.

If you are considering a PPA - make sure the different vendors use same inflation factor, 2% is typical, but some want to do 3%. Reputable vendor should be able to generate proposals based on whatever you prefer.

Drawback of PPA is you get the least savings and the PPA company gets a lien on your property for 20 year period of the contract. But depending on incentives and how good your roof is for solar, it can be a “no out of pocket” way to save a bit on electricity and be green.

Possible drawback of outright purchase is your PV installer or Solar Panel Manufacturer might go out of business and you might have trouble with warranty service. On the other hand, residential panels seem to be staying the same size and you have rack, wiring, net meter, etc so if you did need something replaced the cost should be reasonable.

Other small things to find out:

Ask your homeowners company if your insurance cost will increase with PV array, mine did not.

Find out if your Property Tax will increase by value of PV array. In MA towns are forbidden to raise assessments because Solar installed.