# Is it worth it to try and remove monuments and names honoring white supremacists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258 "2012-06-25T16:21:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/101 "2012-07-05T19:06:18Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > This may come as a shock to children of the Internet, who worship at the glowing altar, but believe it or not, there are these places called “libraries.” And in these “libraries” are things called “books.” Books with words in them. And citations. And _anybody can go there are read them!_ _You don’t even need a computer!_ > > You know what else you can find in these libraries? _Old newspapers! Some of which, believe it or not, have not yet made it, in pixilated form, onto the Internet!_ And in what library might I find the newspapers in question? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/102 "2012-07-05T19:11:18Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > This may come as a shock to children of the Internet, who worship at the glowing altar, but believe it or not, there are these places called “libraries.” And in these “libraries” are things called “books.” Books with words in them. And citations. And _anybody can go there are read them!_ _You don’t even need a computer!_ > > You know what else you can find in these libraries? _Old newspapers! Some of which, believe it or not, have not yet made it, in pixilated form, onto the Internet!_ I just asked a question, which you haven’t answered because you were so busy bitching about being asked. Did you look at a copy of Hurst’s book? That’s fine, though it makes the gratuitous comments about newspapers seem all the more whiny. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/103 "2012-07-05T19:20:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have spent some time trying to find the _original_ sources of the speech(the two newspaper articles previously mentioned), and have come up with nothing yet. I have found dozens of sites that copy either the Wiki site or each other, most without attribution, but I haven’t gotten a peek at the newspapers themselves yet. Any thoughts as to where I search? Yes. As [Captain Amazing pointed out](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14455829&postcount=97) in the [previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=630507) on this topic: > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, supposedly, the Daily Memphis Avalanche quoted the speech. So, all we need to do is get a copy of that paper, which I’m not really sure how to do. But, it looks like, according to the LOC, the Arkansas Historical Commission has it, as do the Memphis Public Library, the Tennessee State Library, and the University of Memphis, so if anybody’s in Little Rock, Nashville or Memphis and wants to do some leg research. . . As I said upthread, it is a fair assumption that research libraries in the Memphis area will also have the Memphis Appeal. Which is, I am sure, where Hurst found The Memphis Appeal when he researched his book. Sorry kids, but not every damn thing is online. And it would be surprising news to a lot of historians if a cite to an old newspaper were rendered invalid because an image of it doesn’t pop up in response to a Google search. Have any of you ever seen a newspaper collection in a major research library? Putting all of those old papers online would be a daunting task. I’m sure it will _eventually_ happen, but we ain’t there yet. As it stands, a cite to an old newspaper is perfectly valid, whether that paper is online or not. And anyway, I have done more than that. I have cited to the Hurst biography, which in turn cites to The Memphis Appeal. So are you calling Hurst a liar? (FYI, his biography is not an apologist work. It is a warts-and-all examination of Forrest. So if you think Hurst is lying, you’ll have to establish some motive. Well?) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/104 "2012-07-05T19:23:07Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I just asked a question, which you haven’t answered because you were so busy bitching about being asked. I gather you are not fluent in sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/105 "2012-07-05T19:34:25Z")
Sure, I understand sarcasm, and I understand that it can be used as an alternative to a direct answer. Which you still haven’t provided. Why is it that answering the question, “Did you look at a copy of Hurst’s biography of Forrest?”, is impossible to do within 3 posts? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/106 "2012-07-05T19:48:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Sure, I understand sarcasm, and I understand that it can be used as an alternative to a direct answer. Which you still haven’t provided. > > Why is it that answering the question, “Did you look at a copy of Hurst’s biography of Forrest?”, is impossible to do within 3 posts? Clearly, you are _not_ fluent in sarcasm, but have no fear: I will translate. The answer is “Yes.” Now why don’t you go do the same? If I am lying about the cite, imagine the fun you will have exposing me! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/107 "2012-07-05T20:26:19Z")
Allow me to ask DrDeth a question in another form: "Spoke has looked with his own eyes upon Hurst’s biography of Forrest, and found the speech in its entirety, with a cite to the Memphis Appeal of July 6, 1875. This rules out the possibility of Hurst being a dupe of contemporary apologists. So, is **Spoke** lying, or is Hurst lying in his biography?" ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/108 "2012-07-05T20:31:52Z")
I think all this might be a bit pointless. We all agree that Forrest was an asshole, right? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/109 "2012-07-06T00:19:44Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Allow me to ask DrDeth a question in another form: > > "Spoke has looked with his own eyes upon Hurst’s biography of Forrest, and found the speech in its entirety, with a cite to the Memphis Appeal of July 6, 1875. This rules out the possibility of Hurst being a dupe of contemporary apologists. > > So, is **Spoke** lying, or is Hurst lying in his biography?" Spoke isn’t. Hurst isn’t lying either. Hurst would just be using a secondary source instead of a primary source. And, since there _was_ A speech, and other cites _say_ they link back to the original source, generally that’s not bad writing. In a historical paper he might be called on it, but not a popular history book. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/110 "2012-07-06T00:21:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think all this might be a bit pointless. We all agree that Forrest was an asshole, right? Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/111 "2012-07-06T00:29:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Spoke isn’t. Hurst isn’t lying either. Hurst would just be using a secondary source instead of a primary source. And, since there _was_ A speech, and other cites _say_ they link back to the original source, generally that’s not bad writing. In a historical paper he might be called on it, but not a popular history book. If he didn’t actually read the source material he cited – the 1875 newspaper – then Hurst is lying about the source of his information. There is no other way to interpret your position. That’s a pretty extraordinary claim. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/112 "2012-07-06T00:51:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Allow me to ask DrDeth a question in another form: > > "Spoke has looked with his own eyes upon Hurst’s biography of Forrest, and found the speech in its entirety, with a cite to the Memphis Appeal of July 6, 1875. This rules out the possibility of Hurst being a dupe of contemporary apologists. > > So, is **Spoke** lying, or is Hurst lying in his biography?" Let me help you frame it even more precisely: If I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that Hurst quotes the speech in its entirety, and cites to page 1 of the relevant issue of _The Memphis Appeal_, will you drop this notion that the text of the speech is a latter-day invention? > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I think all this might be a bit pointless. We all agree that Forrest was an asshole, right? If somebody had just vented about what an asshole Forrest was, I wouldn’t have entered the thread. Because that’s not really a debatable point. But **DrDeth** made some very specific claims about Forrest which are debatable, and should be debated if we are here, as the masthead says, to fight ignorance: 1. He claimed that Forrest was not a very good general, and then, more specifically, that his contemporaries didn’t think very much of him as a general. 2. He unequivocally made the claim that the text of Forrest’s speech to the Pole-Bearers is a latter-day fabrication. It is important to rebut point 1, because it is presented as part of James Loewen’s thesis that the only reason there are monuments to Forrest in the South is because of Forrest’s association with the Klan, and not because of his abilities as a warrior. So, really, the first assertion is part of a more general libel of the South as a whole. I call it libel, because in Loewen’s case it is exactly that. I can think of one specific example from his book. (Going from memory because I don’t have it in front of me.) Loewen mentions a monument to Forrest in Rome, Georgia, and then implies that it is there to honor Forrest for his position in the Klan. What Loewen does not tell his readers is that the monument to Forrest in Rome was erected for the very specific reason that, in April, 1863, [Forrest spared Rome from being sacked by Union forces under Colonel Abel Streight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Georgia#Civil_war_period). (It was a particular feat of genius for Forrest, as he managed to trick Streight into surrendering to an inferior force.) By failing to tell his readers this, and by implying that monuments to Forrest such as that in Rome are actually monuments to the Klan, Loewen defames the people of Rome who erected the monument in honor of this feat. And **DrDeth** habitually perpetuates Loewen’s libels on these boards. He is doing so in this thread. It is perhaps less important to rebut point 2, but still worthwhile because it is so clearly wrong, and we are here to fight ignorance. On a personal note, it is a pet peeve of mine that people try to turn historical figures into cartoon villains for modern political reasons. (Loewen and **DrDeth** do that with Forrest. It happens to Andrew Jackson a lot on these boards, too.) Sorry, but history is more complicated than that, as I think Forrest’s speech to the Pole-Bearers demonstrates. If the man saw the light, even dimly, toward the end of his life, then give him some credit for that. Hell, his speech goes a LOT further than many of Forrest’s contemporaries, North and South, would have gone. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/113 "2012-07-06T01:02:52Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Let me help you frame it even more precisely: > > If I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that Hurst quotes the speech in its entirety, and cites to page 1 of the relevant issue of _The Memphis Appeal_, will you drop this notion that the text of the speech is a latter-day invention… I hope that I understand your writing here – that the first instance of “you” applies to _me_, and the subsequent instances apply to DrDeth. I take your word that your claim is honest. DrDeth seemingly does too, but somehow imagines a middle ground where neither Hurst nor you are lying, but the information in his book is still wrong. There is no such middle ground, and to claim there is is either an outright lie in itself, or delusional thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/114 "2012-07-06T01:23:41Z")
First, let me apologize to **Boyo Jim** for my tone. I mistakenly thought you were attempting a defense of **DrDeth** ’s position. And yes, the question in my last post was directed to DrDeth (and any of his supporters who care to step forward – **Czarcasm** , I’m looking at you). > [@DrDeth](#): > > Spoke isn’t. Hurst isn’t lying either. Hurst would just be using a secondary source instead of a primary source. What secondary source? Hurst’s book was completed in 1993, a time when people weren’t really doing much research online. And nor had the Internet at that point been flooded by hordes of revisionists. In fact, Hurst’s book is likely the source for a lot of the online versions of the speech, rather than vice versa, since I imagine few have made the trek to Tennessee or Arkansas to view the original sources. Hurst is probably the first biographer to take note of the speech. Let’s face it, biographers prior to 1950 likely wouldn’t have concerned themselves much with Forrest’s attempts at reconciliation with black citizens. In fact, for early biographers, that would more likely have been viewed as a mark against him, to be quietly papered over. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/115 "2012-07-06T05:47:32Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > If I can demonstrate to your satisfaction that Hurst quotes the speech in its entirety, and cites to page 1 of the relevant issue of _The Memphis Appeal_, will you drop this notion that the text of the speech is a latter-day invention? . No. Like I said, all that shows is that Hurst did poor research and relied upon a secondary source. 1990 is the earliest I can find a source on line that posts the entire speech. Which is 3 years before Hurst, and none of them that I have see (you have even given us several right here) link back to Hurst. Look, all one has to do is find a microfiche of that newspaper, make a copy, and send it to Czarcasm or a Mod here , etc. I have tried to do so. The Memphis Daily Avalanche newspaper is available thru an online search and here’s the search results: \*Memphis Daily Avalanche Your search for Nathan Forrest did not match any items in Memphis Daily Avalanche. \* > **[Memphis Daily Avalanche Archive Search | GenealogyBank](https://www.genealogybank.com/explore/newspapers/all/usa/tennessee/memphis/memphis-daily-avalanche?sort=_rank_%3AD&lname=forrest&fname=nathan&kwinc=&kwexc=&formDate=1875&processingtime=&group=)** > > Memphis Daily Avalanche archives are an incredible genealogy resource. ✓ Search our database to discover your family’s story! Note that paper was only alive for 5 years. As for the Memphis Appeal, their archives only go back a few years online (They changed names and ownership). However, you can apparently search the years in question if you are a Tennessee resident: [http://www.tn.gov/tsla/resources/19th\_newspapers.htm](http://www.tn.gov/tsla/resources/19th_newspapers.htm) My friend is a editor at a “Major Metropolitian Newspaper” and she sez she can’t get access to either paper for the date in question. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/116 "2012-07-06T06:30:11Z")
But you know. I am giving up on this issue. It’s a mere smokescreen. It doesn’t matter whether or not that NBF, hoping to get out of debt, hoping to be not indicted, and hoping to get railroad backers- made a speech, lying thru his teeth, about how much he really like the race he had spent all his life killing, selling, raping, and terrorizing. I have fallen into the trap that the speech means something, that any single speech by a noted liar (he bragged he lied to Congress about the KKK) would actually undo 50 years of racist atrocities and crimes against Black humanity. We’d laugh our asses off if some Nazi leader tried the old “But some of my best friends are Jewish” line. I did find out that if any paper would have written about NBF, it was those two, whose writing about NBF at times turned towards a hagiography. So, they certainly were familiar with him. So, I don’t give a rats-ass if NBF did get up there and lying in his heart of heart gave that speech. It’s meaningless even if so. Getting us to focus on crap like that, rather than NBF record before the war as a slavedealer, record during the war and record with the KKK, is part of the whole Southern Apologist/Lost Cause propaganda. And, even by denying that “speech” I have been drawn into their trap. _Mea Culpa_. I _am_ finding fun stuff in my new book “The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest”. More or less the author has had the same idea I had- that NBF was picked as the Hero for the “Lost Cause”- due to his leadership of the KKK and Ft Pillow Massacre. I’ll get back to you with some snippets. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/117 "2012-07-06T14:25:17Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > It is important to rebut point 1, because it is presented as part of James Loewen’s thesis that the only reason there are monuments to Forrest in the South is because of Forrest’s association with the Klan, and not because of his abilities as a warrior. So, really, the first assertion is part of a more general libel of the South as a whole. Well, if you want. To me it doesn’t much matter if you put up a statue to a Klansman whether it’s because he was a Klansman or not. I mean, if the people of Germany wanted to put up a statue of Hitler in appreciation of his success in rebuilding the German economy and reforming the public education system… ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/118 "2012-07-06T18:18:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Getting us to focus on crap like that, rather than NBF record before the war as a slavedealer, record during the war and record with the KKK, is part of the whole Southern Apologist/Lost Cause propaganda. No, it’s part of getting the facts straight, and, you know, fighting ignorance. You made a factually incorrect statement. Several, actually. And you got called on it. Try to be more careful. (Not relying on Loewen for information might help with that.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/119 "2012-07-06T20:14:06Z")
No, I didn’t. Nor did you “call me” on anything. You continue with your Southern Apologist/Lost cause viewpoints, attacking minor points that are hard to pin down, while skating away from the larger issues such as NBF leadership of the KKK, his slavetrading, his atrocities at Ft Pillow, and his poor war record at every major battle he was in. Do you agree that NBF was one of the leaders of the KKK? Do you agree that he was responsible for the warcrimes and atrocities at Ft Pillow? Do you agree he was a notorious slavetrader before the war? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258/120 "2012-07-07T01:55:42Z")
And, note I do agree that there was a speech, and the general tone of the speech. The exact words don’t matter at all, really… as I can imagine that evil man smiling his crocodile smile inside as he inwardly laughed at all the “ignorant darkies” he was fooling. However, oh, how his hands must have\* itched\*- to hold a gavel to auction off all those fine bucks to work in the fields, and all those fine high-yella women to “work” \*under \*their master. Itched to hold that bullwhip one more time, to whup the sass out of those "niggers’. Itched to feel that hemp from that noose, like at his last lynching. Oh how he must have smiled to think that just a short ago he was leading a fine band of white-hooded red-necked cowards to lynch, beat, terrorize and burn crosses- and maybe on some of the family of the very folks who were out their in the audience. I wonder if that girl who handed him the flowers could smell the coal-oil and smoke from the last cross burning… or did he get his suit cleaned _really_ well. :rolleyes: No crocodile-tear speech could even mitigate a minute of that man’s evil deeds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-worth-it-to-try-and-remove-monuments-and-names-honoring-white-supremacists/626258.md?page=7)