# Is it wrong to call Finland a Scandinavian country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327 "2014-02-26T16:31:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/21 "2014-02-28T02:39:23Z")
Duplicated post ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/22 "2014-02-28T05:52:56Z")
Be that as it may, the three languages Finnish, Hungarian, and Turkish all display the trait of vowel harmony. Granted you don’t give much value to the writings of Mario Pei, I found this chart in his book _Language for Everybody_ (1957), showing the trait in those three languages; a speaker of Hungarian later confirmed that the Hungarian sentence was correct. (The chart is on p. 271.) (ERxplanation; Back vowels ibn first part of sentence; middle/front vowels later on.) **Hungarian:** A tarkatollú madarak honapután…mind seregestül dél féle repülnek. _(“The birds of motley-colored feathers will fly, tomorrow, all in a group, toward the south.”)_ **Finnish:** Antakaa ruokaa…tälle köyhälle miehelle. _(“Give food to this poor man.”)_ \*\*Turkish: \*\*Odaları bana…gösteriniz. _(“Let me see the rooms.”)_ Paramı…nerede değişitire bilirim? - (”Where can I get my money changed?”)\* ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/23 "2014-02-28T10:23:47Z")
Mario Pei was never that accurate in his writings. He didn’t really keep up well with the current trends in linguistics even in the 1950’s, when his writings were most popular. He got people interested in linguistics, but anyone who went beyond his writings soon realized that he got many details wrong. Furthermore, it’s only a bare majority of linguists today that think that Altaic is a single family. Some think that the three branches, Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic, should each be considered a separate family, since the evidence that they are related isn’t great. It’s now rare for linguists to think that those three branches and Uralic and Japonic and Koreanic are all related. Vowel harmony is probably an areal feature of all those languages: > **[Areal feature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areal_feature)** > > In geolinguistics, areal features are elements shared by languages or dialects in a geographic area, particularly when such features are not descended from a proto-language, or, common ancestor language. That is, an areal feature is contrasted to lingual-genealogically determined similarity within the same language family. Features may diffuse from one dominant language to neighbouring languages (see "sprachbund"). > Genetic relationships are represented in the family tree model of language change... An areal feature is what happens when a bunch of unrelated languages are all spoken in some region. There are influences that spread among them even though they are unrelated. This sort of thing is common, and it’s part of the reason that it’s actually quite hard to know which languages and language families are really related. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/24 "2014-02-28T19:30:59Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Nowdays most linguists no longer believe that Ural-Altaic is a single family. It’s generally believed that Uralic and Altaic are two separate families I know—that’s why I made my conlang a combination of Uralic and Altaic languages. Sun tilyem—sïgo me Uralshï ba Altayshï gelkiteni igetki meni parïlushï gelkin cevdim. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/25 "2014-02-28T22:45:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I know—that’s why I made my conlang a combination of Uralic and Altaic languages. > > Sun tilyem—sïgo me Uralshï ba Altayshï gelkiteni igetki meni parïlushï gelkin cevdim. If you haven’t already started a thread about this, you should. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/26 "2014-02-28T23:45:59Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > If you haven’t already started a thread about this, you should. En puhua suomalainen. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/27 "2014-03-01T01:04:54Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > En puhua suomalainen. Is there an online translator somewhere that gives this result? I remember someone posted something very similar before. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/28 "2014-03-01T01:16:37Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Is there an online translator somewhere that gives this result? I remember someone posted something very similar before. Suomi is “Finnish”, so I’m guessing it means “I speak Finnish”, where “suomalainen” is the proper declension of that word in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/29 "2014-03-01T01:20:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Suomi is “Finnish”, so I’m guessing it means “I speak Finnish”, where “suomalainen” is the proper declension of that word in that sentence. It looks to me like a butchered form of “I don’t speak Finnish,” which would be expected from someone who doesn’t speak Finnish. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/30 "2014-03-01T07:24:19Z")
\*En \*means ‘I don’t’ (_e_- means ‘not’ and -_n_ is the first person singular ending). Finnish is funny that way. For negative verbs, instead of conjugating the verb, they conjugate the negative particle. ---
**Author:** ![movingfinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@movingfinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/movingfinger)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/31 "2014-03-01T07:55:15Z")
Not puhua, but puhu (puhua is the infinitive form of To Speak) And Suomalainen is a Finnish person; a Finn. Damn, my language skills have gone to helvetti. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/32 "2014-03-01T08:54:46Z")
Sorry; I had asked a Finnish speaker I know, but I didn’t remember exactly what he told me…:o ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/33 "2014-03-01T09:08:30Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Mario Pei was never that accurate in his writings. He didn’t really keep up well with the current trends in linguistics even in the 1950’s, when his writings were most popular. He got people interested in linguistics, but anyone who went beyond his writings soon realized that he got many details wrong. Furthermore, it’s only a bare majority of linguists today that think that Altaic is a single family. Some think that the three branches, Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic, should each be considered a separate family, since the evidence that they are related isn’t great. It’s now rare for linguists to think that those three branches and Uralic and Japonic and Koreanic are all related. Vowel harmony is probably an areal feature of all those languages: > > […] Actually, Mr. Pei conceded the status of Ural-Altaic: “While a fairly close bond exists between Finnish, Estonian and Livonian, the unity among the other members of the family is more a matter of certain peculiarities in sound and grammatical structure than of vocabulary. Indeed, some linguists reject the fundamental unity of the Ural-Altaic family, and prefer to classify the Finno-Ugric languages separately from the Altaic.” _–The World’s Chief Languages,_ 1960 edition. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/34 "2014-03-01T09:33:50Z")
So why did you mention Ural-Altaic in post #19? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/35 "2014-03-01T09:57:00Z")
To point out that, although Finland has a non-Germanic language, the people count themselves as Scandinavians nonetheless. I guess it would have been the same had I said “Finno-Ugric” instead of “Ural-Altaic” in that post. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/36 "2014-03-01T10:21:55Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > To point out that, although Finland has a non-Germanic language, the people count themselves as Scandinavians nonetheless. I guess it would have been the same had I said “Finno-Ugric” instead of “Ural-Altaic” in that post. I thought the conclusion of this thread was that Finns are NOT Scandinavians, right? ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/37 "2014-03-01T15:10:16Z")
OK, from reading this thread I get the sense that… Norway, Denmark and Sweden are Scandinavian. Finland is not Scandinavian, but often get lumped in with Scandinavia due to geographic proximity. They also share some cultural similarities, but speak a totally unrelated language. Iceland and the Faroe Islands are cultural and linguistic close cousins to Scandinavia, but aren’t really Scandinavian because of cultural and geographic isolation. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/38 "2014-03-01T15:52:16Z")
This far in the conversation and nobody’s linked to the very appropriate (and funny) webcomic [Scandinavia and the World](http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation)? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/39 "2014-03-01T18:45:27Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > OK, from reading this thread I get the sense that… > > Norway, Denmark and Sweden are Scandinavian. > > Finland is not Scandinavian, but often get lumped in with Scandinavia due to geographic proximity. They also share some cultural similarities, but speak a totally unrelated language. > > Iceland and the Faroe Islands are cultural and linguistic close cousins to Scandinavia, but aren’t really Scandinavian because of cultural and geographic isolation. That is the _opposite_ of what I said in Post No. 22! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/40 "2014-03-01T18:59:54Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That is the _opposite_ of what I said in Post No. 22! :mad: Is that a woosh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327.md?page=3)