# Is it wrong to call Finland a Scandinavian country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327 "2014-02-26T16:31:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/41 "2014-03-01T19:19:37Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > This far in the conversation and nobody’s linked to the very appropriate (and funny) webcomic [Scandinavia and the World](http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation)? I came here to post that… ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/42 "2014-03-01T20:13:14Z")
dougie\_monty, in post no. 19 you quoted Tom Burman as saying: > [@](#): > > it should be pointed out that Icelanders and Finns certainly consider themselves Scandinavian, and somewhat resent the tendency to confine the application of ‘Scandinavian’ to Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. In my experience of Finnish people, this is not correct. They do not consider Finland part of Scandinavia. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/43 "2014-03-01T20:49:01Z")
> [@movingfinger](#): > > Damn, my language skills have gone to helvetti. Because if there’s one thing the Swiss are known for, it’s terrible language skills. 🙂 Or maybe they have a 5th official language now, because why not? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/44 "2014-03-01T21:15:15Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > On the other other hand, recent history has reinforced the differences, as Finland tried to keep on the good side of the USSR at least far enough to not get invaded (again), while Sweden, Norway, and Denmark had the luxury of being more anti-USSR due to not sharing border with it. Sweden and Denmark don’t, but Norway does share a border with Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/45 "2014-03-01T22:46:37Z")
As a Finn: in a way it is wrong, Scandinavia is actually a name of a mountain range and that doesn’t extend here as there’s not a single mountain in Finland. Usually we prefer Nordic country, a part of Fennoscandia. But no-one cares when the context tells if you include Finland. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > En puhua suomalainen. Finland is ‘Suomi’, Finnish ( language ) is ‘suomi’ ( note the small s ), Finnish ( person ) is ‘suomalainen’. ‘I don’t speak Finnish language’ would be ‘En puhu suomea’ ( sic, not ‘suomia’, that’s a different word meaning ‘to lash’ ) Swedish and other languages are totally unintelligible. And Estonian is just annoying 'cause just when one thinks he’s getting a grasp of what the other is saying, it slips away. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/46 "2014-03-02T04:23:09Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > They don’t speak a Scandinavian language and as a former colony of Sweden I think Finns can be slightly touchy about being lumped in with their former colonists. These days they are not _normally defined_ as part of Scandinavia. But they do tend to get _associated_ with Scandinavia, like it or not. I was told by a Swede that they used to watch Finnish TV programmes and try to figure out what they were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/47 "2014-03-02T10:54:32Z")
> [@Freakenstein](#): > > As a Finn: in a way it is wrong, Scandinavia is actually a name of a mountain range and that doesn’t extend here as there’s not a single mountain in Finland. No mountains in Denmark either, though. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/48 "2014-03-02T11:59:35Z")
The name “Scandinavia” doesn’t come from the name of the mountains: > **[scandinavia | Search Online Etymology Dictionary](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=Scandinavia)** > > The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms. It is professional enough to satisfy academic standards, but accessible... The name was first applied to southern Sweden and then extended to the entire peninsula and only later applied to the mountains. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/49 "2014-03-02T12:08:57Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > No mountains in Denmark either, though. But I was going to go skiing! But really, Finland’s highest point is 7.74x Denmark’s. Denmark is pretty much Florida without as much wet heat, or the meth. (Norway’s top point is 14.44x Denmark). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/50 "2014-03-02T12:23:56Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Denmark is pretty much Florida without as much wet heat, or the meth. Oh, we have meth alright. No, crocodiles though… … But only because we killed them all, dissected 'em in front of our children, and fed our lions with their meat. ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/51 "2014-03-02T13:19:16Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > No mountains in Denmark either, though. True, and Denmark is included to Scandinavia by Germanic language and culture. In Finland we have neither 😉 > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The name “Scandinavia” doesn’t come from the name of the mountains: > > [scandinavia | Search Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Scandinavia&searchmode=none) > > The name was first applied to southern Sweden and then extended to the entire peninsula and only later applied to the mountains. Oh, damn, so all these years I got it backwards. Thanks, ignorance fought :). But anyways the point remains, Finland’s no part of southern Sweden, of the peninsula, or of the mountain range. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/52 "2014-03-02T14:05:28Z")
It’s noteworthy that about 5 % of Finns speak Swedish. Finnish military leader and later President Carl Gustav Mannerheim didn’t speak Finnish very well. Another well-known Swedish speaking Finn is Linus Torvalds (of Linux fame). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/53 "2014-03-02T19:31:12Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > dougie\_monty, in post no. 19 you quoted Tom Burman as saying: > In my experience of Finnish people, this is not correct. They do not consider Finland part of Scandinavia. What particular experience have you had? The closest I have been to Finland is Beech Grove, Indiana. I guess your disagreement is with Burnam, not me. In any case, remember that Finland didn’t even exist as a country before World War I; it was a “grand duchy” in the Russian Empire. I would guess that the Finns have less of a beef with the Swedes (or the Danes, or the Norwegians) than with the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/54 "2014-03-02T19:50:07Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > What particular experience have you had? The closest I have been to Finland is Beech Grove, Indiana. > I guess your disagreement is with Burnam, not me. > > In any case, remember that Finland didn’t even exist as a country before World War I; it was a “grand duchy” in the Russian Empire. I would guess that the Finns have less of a beef with the Swedes (or the Danes, or the Norwegians) than with the Russians. Now we also have a Finn in this thread adding to the evidence that Burnam’s statement is inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/55 "2014-03-02T20:07:53Z")
Before Finland was part of Russia, it was part of Sweden from the twelfth century to the eighteenth century. I can’t find anything about what it was considered part of before then. There have been modern human beings living in that area since about 8900 B.C., but it appears that there wasn’t anything resembling a country before the twelfth century: > **[Finland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland)** > > – in Europe (green & dark grey)– in the European Union (green)  –  \[Legend\] Finland (Finnish: Suomi \[ˈsuo̯mi\] (listen); Swedish: Finland \[ˈfɪ̌nland\] (listen)), officially the Republic of Finland (Finnish: Suomen tasavalta; Swedish: Republiken Finland (listen to all)),\[note 2\] is a Nordic country in Northern Europe. It borders Sweden to the northwest, Norway to the north, and Russia to the east, with the Gulf of Bothnia to the west and the Gulf of Finland to the south, across from Estonia. Fin... > **[History of Finland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Finland)** > > Chronological history > The history of Finland begins around 9,000 BC during the end of the last glacial period. Stone Age cultures were Kunda, Comb Ceramic, Corded Ware, Kiukainen, and Pöljä cultures \[fi\]. The Finnish Bronze Age started in approximately 1,500 BC and the Iron Age started in 500 BC and lasted until 1,300 AD. Finnish Iron Age cultures can be separated into Finnish proper, Tavastian and Karelian cultures. The earliest written sources mentioning Finland start to appear from the 12t... ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/56 "2014-03-02T20:18:30Z")
I don’t have much material about Finland myself. The only other thing Burnam said was that Finnish and Swedish are both official languages in Finland; in _Book about a Thousand Things,_ George Stimpson noted that the Swedes “have had a cultural influence on the Finns for eight hundred years.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/57 "2014-03-02T20:45:00Z")
I think you can learn things quicker and more accurately by consulting sources on the Internet like Wikipedia than by looking in a 1985 book by one author that claims to have information about a thousand things. Finland became a part of Sweden in 1249, although the Swedes had been raiding it for a century or so before that. 1985 - 1249 = 836, so saying that it was influenced by the Swedes for eight hundred years is about right, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/58 "2014-03-02T21:48:09Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > What particular experience have you had? Extensive and intimate experience. > [@](#): > > I guess your disagreement is with Burnam, not me. You’re right; I should have been more clear. My disagreement is with Burnam. > [@](#): > > In any case, remember that Finland didn’t even exist as a country before World War I; it was a “grand duchy” in the Russian Empire. I would guess that the Finns have less of a beef with the Swedes (or the Danes, or the Norwegians) than with the Russians. You might be surprised. Seriously. The Finns were better off under the Russians than under the Swedes, and the incorporation into the Russian Empire in 1810 may be seen as something of a liberation. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/59 "2014-03-02T22:14:05Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > You might be surprised. Seriously. The Finns were better off under the Russians than under the Swedes, and the incorporation into the Russian Empire in 1810 may be seen as something of a liberation. The Winter War happened within living memory; Swedish oppression back in the 18th century, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327/60 "2014-03-03T00:49:27Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I think you can learn things quicker and more accurately by consulting sources on the Internet like Wikipedia than by looking in a 1985 book by one author that claims to have information about a thousand things. Finland became a part of Sweden in 1249, although the Swedes had been raiding it for a century or so before that. 1985 - 1249 = 836, so saying that it was influenced by the Swedes for eight hundred years is about right, I guess. My first acquaintance with Stimpson’s book, and this topic, was in 1964, when I was a high-school freshman. It was a library book then, but I have a copy of my own now. (Burnam acknowledged his debt to Stimpson in the forewords of his two volumes.) I also corresponded briefly with an Esperantist in Hungary in the late 60s; from what he told me your claims about Finnish vis-a-vis Turkish seem to be verified. (Secondary consideration: All of the so-called Ural-Altaic languages seem to eschew grammatical gender–not only not assigning masculine or feminine gender to inanimate objects, but not even having separate words for “he,” “she,” and “it.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-call-finland-a-scandinavian-country/682327.md?page=4)