# Is it wrong to have sexual or relationship preferences based on race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295 "2016-06-02T09:04:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/81 "2016-06-03T19:31:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Appearance can BE race. “Race” is a social construct, not a biological one. If the accepted definition of “black race” is “Dark skin, curly hair, you know, people who look like Will Smith” then, in that time and place, that’s what “black” is as a race. I thought the context here was online dating profiles, not whatever fine-granular mistaking of ethnicity for race is happening in your examples. When I talk about race in this thread, I _am_ talking about the social races as those sorts of sites use them, and that’s the level of granularity _I_ mean. Not “Han Chinese”, but “Asian”. Not “The English race” but “White”. By those standards, any Andamanese who miraculously logged onto OKCupid _would_ be perfectly right to put “Asian” in their profiles. Which is why appearance has no relation to race. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/82 "2016-06-03T20:27:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > But taking the population as a whole, it shows what our culture values and doesn’t value, and it has wider implications that just who is getting dates or not. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the same demographics who are more overlooked than average on dating sites are the same demographics who are more often discriminated against in looking for jobs or housing or other issues. Good post in response to an understandably sensitive topic. I admit outright that I have absolutely no evidence or data whatsoever to back up a crackpot theory of mine, and if I offend anyone I apologize in advance. But that disclaimer out of the way, I have suspected that selection based on race is a natural human tendency. However, before people jump all over me, hear me out. I don’t think it’s a straightforward preference of race, meaning I don’t think we are pre-programmed to be attracted to or to reject people of color if we are white, or vice versa. What I suspect is that people probably overlook some people of certain ethnic backgrounds because they are perceived to be of a different status than the one that we wish to attain. I think these biases operate well below our threshold of consciousness and they are probably learned by what we see in our own environment and in our own limited interactions and experiences. Fair or not, mistakenly or not, I think a lot of whites equate white with higher social status. I think people of other races do, too, which might explain the data (albeit limited and unscientific) that shows that people of other races may be less discriminating toward whites than the other way around. On a subconscious level, we all have a desire to be part of the group with power and status, and we simultaneously fear losing it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/83 "2016-06-03T21:40:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, your insistence that words relating to **prejudice and discrimination** should be considered equally applicable to **feelings of involuntary sexual attraction** has led you into a semantic whiteout where there is no longer any meaningful distinction between the concepts of “ageism” and “not being a pedophile”. > > I rest my case. You have no case. People choose who they date or don’t. Is there no free will with regards to love? If you choose not to date someone specifically due to your perception of his race that is racist. People want a pass on that because they don’t want to be considered a demonic racist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/84 "2016-06-03T22:09:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If you choose not to date someone specifically due to your perception of his race that is racist. As other posters have discussed, one can make a good case that it’s racist to base your dating decisions specifically on somebody’s racial **identification**. But it’s not automatically racist not to be sexually attracted to some particular characteristics of **appearance** , whether or not they’re part of racial stereotypes. Trying to claim that involuntary feelings of sexual attraction based on **appearance** are equivalent to discrimination based on **racial identity** is just **octopus** -speak. Likewise, also in **octopus** -speak, if you’re not sexually attracted to children, that is ageist. :rolleyes: Which demonstrates not that people in general are disingenuously trying to avoid acknowledging bigotry, but merely that **octopus** -speak is a silly and semantically obfuscatory language. You’re free to go on speaking it if it amuses you, but there’s no reason anybody else should bother with it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/85 "2016-06-03T22:12:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As other posters have discussed, one can make a good case that it’s racist to base your dating decisions specifically on somebody’s racial **identification**. But it’s not automatically racist not to be sexually attracted to some particular characteristics of **appearance** , whether or not they’re part of racial stereotypes. > > Trying to claim that involuntary feelings of sexual attraction based on **appearance** are equivalent to discrimination based on **racial identity** is just **octopus** -speak. Likewise, also in **octopus** -speak, if you’re not sexually attracted to children, that is ageist. :rolleyes: > > Which demonstrates not that people in general are disingenuously trying to avoid acknowledging bigotry, but merely that **octopus** -speak is a silly and semantically obfuscatory language. You’re free to go on speaking it if it amuses you, but there’s no reason anybody else should bother with it. I’m not the one engaging in the shady business of refusing to date due to race. Look, I get it, people want to use the word racist to describe other people such as Republicans and not examine their own biases. Even if you use a loophole such as no naturally kinky hair for example it’s still racist due to disparate impact. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/86 "2016-06-03T22:22:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Which demonstrates not that people in general are disingenuously trying to avoid acknowledging bigotry, but merely that **octopus** -speak is a silly and semantically obfuscatory language. You’re free to go on speaking it if it amuses you, but there’s no reason anybody else should bother with it. Ain’t that the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/87 "2016-06-04T03:14:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-helligar/sorry-i-dont-do-asians-the-dangers-of-racial-discrimination-in-dating\_b\_5647938.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-helligar/sorry-i-dont-do-asians-the-dangers-of-racial-discrimination-in-dating_b_5647938.html) > > I’ve been seeing a few articles like these being posted by gay Facebook friends lately decrying “sexual racism”. Gay men freely posting on Grindr and such that “I’m not into Asians” or “keep it white” yada yada. I see similar personals everywhere though. I had thought that personal relationships was the one place where it was okay to have defined racial preferences. Not so much because I think that intellectually it’s right(it’s not), but because it’s so personal and intimate that we can’t go judging people for having their preferences, and simply because I believe that 95% of people have these preferences. And if we acknowledge that these preferences are okay, then it’s okay to say them out loud. It makes less sense to infer that you’ll date anyone but then only pick certain candidates based on their race. > > So is “sexual racism” or “relationship racism” something we should judge people for, or should we regard this area of life as too personal to interfere with? Mind you I’m not talking about government action here, as the government could never legally allow say, lawsuits because a woman turned you down ,I’m talking more about the social pressures that we bring to bear against people who openly express racist views. Seems that it’s still quite okay to express definite racial preferences for romantic relationships. Should this last bastion of open racism be stamped out? It sorta depends on why you have your particular racial kink. Is it a manifestation of societal racism, personal racism, just some kink you picked up from some man or woman from your childhood, etc? I do think that the media could do a better job of leveling the playing field in handing out roles with different levels of sex appeal. There are archetypes for racial minorities in media. When you see a black dude with a bunch of white guys, you have an almost built in back story for them. Its like dwarves and elves in fantasy movies, we sorta know who they are and their backstory before they utter a word. We bring these racial minority archetypes into the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/88 "2016-06-04T17:08:16Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Obviously, it’s hard to control attraction and you like what you like. On the other hand if someone thought a celebrity was a beautiful Latina only to have their attraction change to revulsion when they discovered she was actually a light-skinned Black woman, I’d think they needed to do some soul-searching. Uh, I’ve been in more or less that situation (not involving Black or Latino women, but two other ethnic categories), and I assure you I didn’t feel the need to do any ‘soul searching’ afterward. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/89 "2016-06-04T17:24:29Z")
That’s … not exactly surprising. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/90 "2016-06-04T17:29:20Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Uh, I’ve been in more or less that situation (not involving Black or Latino women, but two other ethnic categories), and I assure you I didn’t feel the need to do any ‘soul searching’ afterward. Please expand on this – why did your attraction change to revulsion? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/91 "2016-06-04T17:41:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As other posters have discussed, one can make a good case that it’s racist to base your dating decisions specifically on somebody’s racial **identification**. But it’s not automatically racist not to be sexually attracted to some particular characteristics of **appearance** , whether or not they’re part of racial stereotypes. I think it’s complex. Is sexual preference based on race necessarily “racist”? Not in the sense that someone has malicious intent or that they are making a conscious decision to be discriminatory. And yet, it’s entirely possible (I would guess likely) that our biases and our perceptions of status do influence sexual attraction, most likely operating on an extremely subconscious level. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/92 "2016-06-04T18:11:50Z")
I do think some preferences are racist, sure. My father, for instance, has openly admitted to being “color-struck”–the name of the condition whereby a black person thinks European features are superior over African ones. He’s not proud of this–I don’t think–and he fully recognizes it comes from a place of self-hatred and insecurity (instilled by his color-struck mother, as well as inculcation by a racist society). But he still has color-struck notions and reveals them sometimes (usually to a roomful of rolling eyes). Now, should he be ashamed about all this? Well, I don’t know. Part of me thinks he should be, but part of me also understands why someone born and raised in the US would be attracted to light skin. Rather than shaming him, I think it makes more sense to give him some credit for being honest with himself. At least he acknowledges that there’s something more than basic biology influencing his preferences. He’s not hiding behind some bogus evolutionary psychology theory. He knows he’s got issues. Just like most people. But most people aren’t honest with themselves. I can’t spend an hour of the internet without coming across the comment: “I don’t find black women attractive”. Often it is offered apropos of nothing. And yes, it screams “I’m a big ole racist!” to me. There are so many beautiful black women out in the world, with a full range of looks and styles, and you mean to tell me _none of them ring your bell_? Not even a tiny bit? But more than that is, why even say something like that? Rarely do you hear people throwing out their other “non-preferences” (“I am unattracted to guys with short necks!” “Women with round eyes make my dick go limp!”) I think it goes back to what **Maastricht** said about status. A person who openly expresses their disdain for the stereotypical black woman aesthetic no doubt enjoys the same boost to his ego that my father used to feel when he’d bash dark skinned girls with his friends. This is the mentality: _“Only loser guys are attracted to trash. I’m not attracted to trash, and thus I’m a winner.”_ All that said, I wouldn’t judge someone who is clearly biased in their dating preferences _absent_ ignorant commentary from them. Love is already complicated, so I don’t blame someone for wanting to avoid the added complications of culture clashes. Race and culture overlay each other in fairly predictable ways. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/93 "2016-06-04T18:19:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I think the issue is not so much personal preference, but at a cultural level. Anyone is free to be as discriminatory as they like when dating. You can choose not to date black people, or musicians, or Libertarians, or short people, or people from Nevada, or any other criteria you like. Any guy who’s mainly interested in blond hair blue-eyed women and who’d rather not date a black woman isn’t the issue. Even a lot of guys who are mainly interested in blond hair blue-eyed women and don’t want to date black women are still not bad. > > But taking the population as a whole, it shows what our culture values and doesn’t value, and it has wider implications that just who is getting dates or not. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the same demographics who are more overlooked than average on dating sites are the same demographics who are more often discriminated against in looking for jobs or housing or other issues. Of course a person is free to be as racist as he or she likes when dating. I don’t think that was ever the question. The question was more of a moral one in that, “If I only date white girls, does that make me a racist?” And I would disagree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph. In my office, I might hire a black guy as a paralegal. It doesn’t mean I want to have sex with him. I might have a one night stand with a ditzy drunk chick I picked up at a bar. It doesn’t mean I want to hire her. I might love to have 85 year old Mable as a neighbor because she tells me when people were at the house when I was gone, and she brings over a plate of her leftovers. I wouldn’t mind what race she was as long as she kept being nice and kept the food coming. However, needless to say, there is no sexual activity happening with Mable. So, I sort of push back on your premise that there is any link at all between sexual attraction and jobs/housing. The criteria that is used in judging each is entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/94 "2016-06-04T19:37:23Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/95 "2016-06-05T00:58:11Z")
Most folks form their ideas of what is attractive early on. That old song “I want a girl just like the girl…” hit it pretty close. However, I think that in America black folk can not escape absorbing a certain amount of the _societal_ norm of what constitutes beauty. That’s not strictly racial, it just comes with being a minority. (In the numeric sense, that is.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/96 "2016-06-05T06:44:57Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Most folks form their ideas of what is attractive early on. That old song “I want a girl just like the girl…” hit it pretty close. > > However, I think that in America black folk can not escape absorbing a certain amount of the _societal_ norm of what constitutes beauty. That’s not strictly racial, it just comes with being a minority. (In the numeric sense, that is.) It’s not just an American, or even a minority, thing. Check out the popularity of skin lighteners in Africa and Asia sometime. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/97 "2016-06-05T19:58:19Z")
Yesterday President Barak Obama mourned Muhammad Ali and said: “‘I am America,’ he once declared,” Obama continued. “‘I am the part you won’t recognize. But get used to me — black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own. Get used to me.’ That’s the Ali I came to know as I came of age — not just as skilled a poet on the mic as he was a fighter in the ring, but a man who fought for what was right. A man who fought for us.” Muhammed Ali had an opinion on this very subject: [https://youtu.be/D7Ka40KovVo](https://youtu.be/D7Ka40KovVo) ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/98 "2016-06-05T20:51:55Z")
Didn’t Muhammad Ali have like two white Irish Grandfathers? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/99 "2016-06-05T21:30:55Z")
Muhammad Ali changed his views very significantly over time. Unless he’s repeated such sentiment recently, I would imagine that he’s changed his views on miscegenation as well. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295/100 "2016-06-05T23:19:14Z")
I’d suspect he has. He was hanging around some pretty idiotic characters back then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-have-sexual-or-relationship-preferences-based-on-race/756295.md?page=6)