# Is it wrong to ignore the gender identities of people like Chelsea Manning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080 "2017-01-24T22:16:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/41 "2017-01-25T15:18:09Z")
Regardless of my feelings for the crime and the criminal they deserve, whatever they’ve done, to be treated with a measure of human dignity. That includes using the correct pronoun for their gender status, in Manning’s case _she_. By doing so you’re in no way indicating approval of what she did, nor does it mean you respect her, other than with the basic modicum of respect that you would accord any human being. I think **Shodan** ’s error lies in thinking of her gender transformation as a privilege rather than a basic right. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/42 "2017-01-25T15:41:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > There is no argument on Wikipedia over what pronoun to use with Jenner now, and the article on Manning starts, “Chelsea Elizabeth Manning[5] (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987)” and goes on to refer to her as “she.” > > \*\*Shodan \*\*knows perfectly well what he’s doing is wrong. No, I don’t think I am wrong. This is an argument from authority, and I don’t think Wikipedia is a good authority in matters such as this. In the specific case, as I said, if it hurts Bradley Manning’s feelings to be called “he”, tough toenails. He’s a traitor. In the general case, it can’t be resolved. Transgender people want to tell me what I mean when I say what I mean. I don’t care to play along. And “my feelings are sacrosanct - how DARE you not care about them!!!” is not all that convincing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/43 "2017-01-25T15:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] In the general case, it can’t be resolved. Transgender people want to tell me what I mean when I say what I mean. I don’t care to play along. And “my feelings are sacrosanct - how DARE you not care about them!!!” is not all that convincing. [/QUOTE] Agreed. But in this case they don’t need to tell you, it’s obvious you are being a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/44 "2017-01-25T15:58:25Z")
Manning’s gender identity should be treated the same as any other convicted criminal’s. Using the preferred pronoun to avoid disrespect to other trans people seems reasonable. As far as the law goes, though, she should remain legally whatever gender she was at the time of conviction, and if that means being in a male prison or not receiving gender reassignment surgery until release, that’s fine. It should also all be irrelevant, because she should have been shot for treason… ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/45 "2017-01-25T16:04:36Z")
In the context of that previous thread, I thought **Shodan’s** use of “he” was _clearly_ a personal insult directed solely at Ms. Manning … **Shodan** even specifically said the insult was because he thought the young woman was a traitor to her country … at worst it was threadshitting but I didn’t read any broad categorical commentary on the _trans_-gender community … When I call the neighbor lady a bitch, I’m not insulting all women, I’m just insulting her … sometimes I have to wonder at all this oversensitivity and think what’s being hidden … ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/46 "2017-01-25T16:04:54Z")
> [@AtomThought](#): > > Recently, I was reading through [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=810920) thread and I stumbled upon a tangential conversation from November of last year, between **Shodan** and several others, about the pronouns he was using to refer to Chelsea Manning. He was purposefully using male pronouns to refer to her, despite the fact that she identifies as a woman. He justified this by saying that as a “traitor” Manning lacked the right to be treated with common decency. > > Here is part of the conversation: > > Later in the thread, **Miller** equated this with refering to a Jew using an ethnic slur > > Because their conversation was veering off-topic, a moderator told them to continue it in a new thread if they so desired. They didn’t (as far as I know, so apologies if there is another thread about this), but I’m interested in this issue and would like to see it discussed on the board. > > Is it okay to refer to an individual using their non-preferred pronouns, solely because you don’t think the individual deserves to be treated with respect? Or is it disparaging to all trans-gendered people to ignore a individual’s gender identify just because you deem them a “traitor”? Is it analogous to referring to that person using an ethnic slur? I would like to know the opinions of my fellow Dopers. > > I had considered starting this thread in the Pit, as I suspect it could provoke some strong emotions, but I thought I would give the topic a shot at being discussed with civility. The mods are be free to move it to the Pit if it gets out of hand. To me, it’s not a matter of decency or anything else other than that is what someone chooses to be called. Making pronoun mistakes should be tolerated despite the annoyance in the same way name mistakes should be tolerated (then again, I’m bias since I’m terrible with names and have had my name pronounced 100000 different ways). But intentionally calling someone a pronoun they do not wish to be called is wrong for two reasons: it’s factually incorrect to do so, and acting out of such negative motivations is not in our own psychological best interest. We shouldn’t need to find moral obligations to act in a positive or at least neutral manner, particularly in such a trivial matter for those who are being asked to call someone by a different pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/47 "2017-01-25T16:07:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He could argue that, but it doesn’t change the fact that attacking Manning’s gender identity is going to be interpreted as insulting by most trans people. It’s kind of like saying, “I only called him a nigger because I knew it would piss him off.” > > “Once one decides he deserves it, anything goes,” is exactly the opposite of what I’m saying. There’s a big difference here: “Nigger” is intrinsically a slur. “He” is not. I don’t understand your last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/48 "2017-01-25T16:14:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think I made my reaction clear in the other thread, but for clarity’s sake I don’t see any reason, even past traitorous conduct, to use the wrong gender pronoun to refer to a person. I can remain free to call her a traitorous, disloyal scumbag (if that’s my evaluation) without needing to call her ‘him.’ > > By the same general logic, I wouldn’t call her an arsonist or a car thief…because she’s not an arsonist or a car thief. It’s unclear how her traitorous actions relate in any way to her entitlement to a correct pronoun. Bricker said it best. This, as a person of color, sounds a lot like the notion that some black people deserve to be called niggers, or Latinos wetbacks, but just the ones that deserve it (“Not you, you’re not like them.”) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/49 "2017-01-25T16:35:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am not sure I follow, are you saying that by not misgendering transgender people, they are going to rule france? > > To be serious, you respect their beliefs when it does not harm you. Can you tell me in what way using a person’s prefered pronoun harms you? It doesn’t harm me anymore than calling the person “Napoleon” harms me. And in contrast, calling that person by their legal name would severely distress them. So I would choose to address them as they wish to be called. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/50 "2017-01-25T16:43:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You’re confusing grandiose delusions and megalomania with gender dysphoria. One isn’t necessarily a mental disorder, the other makes you unexpectedly successful in politics. As I said, it’s not a direct equivalency. And I doubt transgendered people are any more likely to be delusional as anyone else. I had a transgendered friend many years ago (we’ve since lost touch) and she had no illusions about her biology, it just had nothing to do with her gender identity. In all honesty it would have felt weird to me calling her a “he” as much as it would to call a self-identified and biological female “he”. It was a hypothetical situation only. I guess it was a bad example though. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/51 "2017-01-25T16:46:38Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > When I call the neighbor lady a bitch, I’m not insulting all women, I’m just insulting her … sometimes I have to wonder at all this oversensitivity and think what’s being hidden … I’ve heard it opined that calling any woman a “bitch” is misogynistic. I don’t subscribe to that and I don’t think the cultural majority would either but there are people who would. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/52 "2017-01-25T16:46:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He didn’t use “it”, so I’d hardly say that using “he” instead of “she” wasn’t treating the person as a human. Besides, we’re not talking about “lots of people” here. We’re talking about a specific individual. > > But just taking **Shodan** at his word, I think that if someone (for instance) killed several of my loved ones and then got a sex-change, I doubt I’d give much thought to which pronoun I’d use when talking about him/her. Since you seem to just be running through this thread arguing semantics and picking apart examples, I’ll suggest that since, presumably, Chelsea Manning didn’t kill several of your loved ones, therefore you actually should be giving much thought to the pronoun used to refer to “him/her”. But, as I said before, if this how you feel, imagine it applied to yourself, even on a smaller scale. Get a speeding ticket, you get your name published in the newspaper along with some adjective you don’t agree with. Hey, you broke the law, therefore I have no respect for you, so I’m going to call you out as supporting a political party you hate or preferring a gender that you don’t, just cuz. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/53 "2017-01-25T16:48:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Agreed. But in this case they don’t need to tell you, it’s obvious you are being a jackass. This is a warning for personal insults. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. As a side note, I’ve noticed a recent escalation in rhetoric you’ve employed. Please take this as a recommendation that you stay within the rules of the forum. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/54 "2017-01-25T16:59:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I don’t think I am wrong. This is an argument from authority, and I don’t think Wikipedia is a good authority in matters such as this. > > In the specific case, as I said, if it hurts Bradley Manning’s feelings to be called “he”, tough toenails. He’s a traitor. > > In the general case, it can’t be resolved. Transgender people want to tell me what I mean when I say what I mean. I don’t care to play along. And “my feelings are sacrosanct - how DARE you not care about them!!!” is not all that convincing. > > Regards, > Shodan Exactly. You know what the respectful thing to do is, and you admit that while knowing better, you’re going to punish him by deliberately using the disrespectful term. Again, you know using “him” is wrong. You just want to do it anyway. As to whether it’s wrong to be disrespectful to a convict, that’s a different question. But you do know using male pronouns with a trans female is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/55 "2017-01-25T17:09:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Hey, if \*\*Shodan \*\*wants to use the wrong pronoun, we should just let her. This makes a good point. If it’s not insulting to refer to transgender people as “he”, then it is not insulting to refer to me as “her” and I shouldn’t take offense. And I don’t - I don’t care. But I don’t have any gender issues. I know perfectly well that I am male, and referring to me as “her” or “she” or whatever is stupid. And I suspect that, on some level, transgender people are not nearly as sure that they are what they claim to be. Therefore it is much more threatening to their self-image or their gender construct or whatever you want to call whatever they are trying to create, if someone doesn’t want to play along. Plus the thing tends to be self-refuting. Calling someone “she” who has a moustache (and a penis and XY chromosomes) - I am not the one who looks silly. “N_gger" or “bitch” or "f_ggot” - sure, those are inherently insulting. “He” or “she” or “w_man" or "m_le” - no, they aren’t, they are descriptions. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Exactly. You know what the respectful thing to do is, and you admit that while knowing better, you’re going to punish him by deliberately using the disrespectful term. Again, you know using “him” is wrong. You just want to do it anyway. > > As to whether it’s wrong to be disrespectful to a convict, that’s a different question. But you do know using male pronouns with a trans female is wrong. I began the post you quoted by saying that no, I don’t believe I am wrong. So I don’t “know” anything of the sort. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/56 "2017-01-25T17:39:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What was your defense of calling President Trump different names, again? I haven’t offered one. “Don’t be a dick to people who don’t deserve it,” was a bad formulation on my part. What I was trying to say was, if you’re going to insult a person, be careful to only insult that person. If you’re want to be a dick to Obama, call him an idiot, or a motherfucker, or a socialist piece of shit. Don’t call him a nigger, though, because then you’re not just being a dick to Obama, you’re being a dick to black people in general. If you want to be a dick to Chelsea Manning, call her a traitor. Call her scum that deserves to be shot. Call her Traitor McTreasonface. But if you call her Bradley, that’s going to be perceived as an attack on the validity of transgender identity as a whole, and will be interpreted, by most trans people, as broadly insulting to trans people in general. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > There’s a big difference here: “Nigger” is intrinsically a slur. “He” is not. It’s a difference that is wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are any number of terms that are not intrinsically slurs, but are still considered insulting to specific demographics. “Boy” isn’t intrinsically a slur, but is perceived as widely derogatory when used to describe black people. “Jew” isn’t a slur, except when used as a verb. “He” isn’t a slur, except when it’s used to deliberately elide the existence of trans people in general. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand your last sentence. I’m not arguing that, if you don’t like someone, you’re free to insult them in any terms you want. I’m arguing the opposite of that: if you don’t like someone, you still need to be careful about how you insult them, because you want to make sure you’re only insulting them, not broad demographic groups to which they belong. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/57 "2017-01-25T17:57:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But I don’t have any gender issues. I know perfectly well that I am male, and referring to me as “her” or “she” or whatever is stupid. And I suspect that, on some level, transgender people are not nearly as sure that they are what they claim to be. Therefore it is much more threatening to their self-image or their gender construct or whatever you want to call whatever they are trying to create, if someone doesn’t want to play along. No shit! You think? That’s what gender dysphoria _is_. Imagine if the whole world, from your parents and spouse and children and friends and coworkers, to your doctor and strangers on the internet, called you “she” and “Mary”, day in, day out, from birth until death? You probably wouldn’t be so damn confident in your maleness. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/58 "2017-01-25T18:15:59Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No shit! You think? That’s what gender dysphoria _is_. Imagine if the whole world, from your parents and spouse and children and friends and coworkers, to your doctor and strangers on the internet, called you “she” and “Mary”, day in, day out, from birth until death? You probably wouldn’t be so damn confident in your maleness. And if I had a vulva and XX chromosomes, the whole world would have a point in saying that “she” is what people like me are called. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/59 "2017-01-25T18:25:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s a difference that is wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are any number of terms that are not intrinsically slurs, but are still considered insulting to specific demographics. “Boy” isn’t intrinsically a slur, but is perceived as widely derogatory when used to describe black people. “Jew” isn’t a slur, except when used as a verb. “He” isn’t a slur, except when it’s used to deliberately elide the existence of trans people in general. The point of disagreement is that when **Shodan** calls Manning “he”, it’s not a slur against all trans people. It’s an insult aimed specifically at Manning. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080/60 "2017-01-25T18:31:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And if I had a vulva and XX chromosomes, the whole world would have a point in saying that “she” is what people like me are called. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodan, have you ever known someone who had a legal given name that they hated? And they insisted that you call them by a nickname. Like “William” being “Bill”, or “Theodore” being “Ted”. You might be factually correct in calling them by their full, given name, but doing so pushes their buttons. Maybe their abusive parent was the only one who called them “William” so it’s painful to be called that. Would you insist on doing it just to prove a point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-ignore-the-gender-identities-of-people-like-chelsea-manning/778080.md?page=4)