# Is it "wrong" to prefer untouched girls? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740 "2003-08-31T02:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/281 "2003-09-02T04:48:10Z")
Colinmarshall, the part that bothers me about your preference is, you are having sex with these women and therefore putting them into the catagory of women you wouldn’t be interested in. Your preference (or insistance) for a virginal woman is one thing even if you don’t hold yourself to the same standard you insist on from your ladyfriend, the fact that you intentially change that status is reprehensible. If her virginity is so important to you, you should cherish and protect it, not use and discard it in such a callous manner. Since you refer to non-virginal women as “used” you must admit you are one of the ones “using” them. You may not change how you feel but you definately need to change your actions. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/282 "2003-09-02T04:53:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giggle Gaggle \* > \*\*Men, unless they co-habitate with the woman in question, are not in a position to track their menstrual cycles effectively. If asked, the woman could simply lie, and the man has no way of knowing. > > Granted. Which is why men are most often not sexually attracted to pregnant women (through there are a few fetishists who are). Men’s lack of attraction to pregnant women derives from the same heuristic that motivates attraction to virginal women i.e. maximizing chances of his seed taking. > > A woman with an intact hymen is a sure virgin, and is sure to not be pregnant. A woman without an intact hymen might or might not be a virgin, might or might not be pregnant. In the absence of effective pregnancy tests and a complete medical history, it is anybody’s guess. > > If a woman claims that she is a virgin, but she is not verifiably so, she is treated as nonvirginal. This is the same standard that we apply to scientific theories, and equally valid in that context as in this one. > > \*\* I’ve read through this whole thread, and I still don’t see an answer to this : how is a guy to know about the state of a woman’s hymen before sleeping with her? If her word isn’t good enough, then what? Very few women are going to spread their legs and hold the flashlight for you while you check to see if the state of things is how she presented them, nor are they going to appriciate you scheduling a GYN appoinment for them before you’re willing to have sex with them. Physical “proof” of virginity doesn’t do much good if the woman isn’t willing to play show and tell, and it’s not hung out in the open for anyone to see without resorting to unsavory means… As for the OP I feel sort of bad for him, but I still think he’s a jerk. If he was only willing to _marry_ a virgin, it’d be a lot less unpleasant; at least then it would only be one woman who wouldn’t be “ruined” by her experience with him. Picking a virgin and sticking with her would be a lot more respectable. Not to say he should only date one woman, but with his attitude, any “using” activities should be a no-no before they’re married- that way if things don’t work out he doesn’t have to feel guilty about making her less than she was before they met. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/283 "2003-09-02T05:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > elfkin477 wrote: > > Not to say he should only date one woman, but with his attitude, any “using” activities should be a no-no before they’re married- that way if things don’t work out he doesn’t have to feel guilty about making her less than she was before they met. That’s it. That’s it. That’s the problem. It’s not the “fetish.” It’s a fetish, what is he supposed to do? It’s his choice to have sex with these women—to “use” them so. He may not be able to control his fetish, but if he wants to not be hypocritical, then I don’t see why he _has_ to have sex with her. Better to wait until they get married. Or, if it doesn’t work out, at least he hasn’t “used” her. I know Colin is not a strict Christian or religious person, but some extremely religious people stick by this policy—very little physical affection before marriage. If he’s going to have such a strong feeling about “used women,” then maybe he’d better take up the habits of some strict religious people, and just stick with hand-holding. Otherwise, it is pretty hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/284 "2003-09-02T07:38:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **how is a guy to know about the state of a woman’s hymen before sleeping with her?** Brought-up that same blatant absurdity back on page one or two. Still waiting for a coherent answer. Check that. Realized one wasn’t forthcoming about half a page of obfuscatory, Giggle Gaggle dribble later. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/285 "2003-09-02T09:58:12Z")
Banned? Now how am I going to ask him if he understands the difference between “virgin porn” and “hymen porn”? **Maeglin’s** research notwithstanding. (And I’m taking you up on that suggestion to _not_ try the research myself! Ewwww!) Still. **Giggle Gaggle**. A name to rank alongside **Jack Dean Tyler** in terms of pseudo-intellectual sexually disfunctional obsessives. Marvellous. pan ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_Heart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Angel\_Heart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_Heart)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/286 "2003-09-02T14:06:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*As for the OP I feel sort of bad for him, but I still think he’s a jerk. If he was only willing to _marry_ a virgin, it’d be a lot less unpleasant; at least then it would only be one woman who wouldn’t be “ruined” by her experience with him. Picking a virgin and sticking with her would be a lot more respectable. Not to say he should only date one woman, but with his attitude, any “using” activities should be a no-no before they’re married- that way if things don’t work out he doesn’t have to feel guilty about making her less than she was before they met. \*\* Good call. After all, isn’t the traditional Madonna/whore complex that a man will date (and sleep with) a “bad” woman but will only marry a “good” one? I can see a man being leery about a woman who’s slept with the entire hockey team (and even then it’s none of his beeswax if they’ve both had their blood tests), but considering a woman somehow sullied by her first time (or second, or third) is a bit disturbing. I attribute this to the OP’s young age: he probably hasn’t been sexually active for that long and this is all relatively new to him. Although GG is no longer around to provide an easy laugh, I would like to answer his biological claims in one word: civilization. Since we stopped living in caves and started farming, our values have changed. Most people don’t have 10 children anymore, either. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee59a6/32.png) [@CrazyMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/287 "2003-09-02T16:07:50Z")
Colinmarshall, might I recommend [this perfume](http://lanescarproducts.com/newcarscent.html) for your girlfriends in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/288 "2003-09-02T16:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Well, then I appologize. Sorry. > > But as for the OP, I think he needs to seriously examine his reasons for these extreme measures. \*\* I guess I owe an apology too. On rereading my post, I sound pretty rude, but I did mean that to be polite! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > **Which, according to Darwin, is even less rigorous than natural selection. It does not substantially change the scenario, nor GG’s misapplication of evolution to support his point of view.** This is true, Darwin pointed out that while the “failures” of natural selection die, the failures of sexual selection merely have none/few offspring. I just wanted to point that out because… well, I’m a nitpicker. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee59a6/32.png) [@CrazyMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyMonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/289 "2003-09-02T16:44:27Z")
Colinmarshall, is this just a preference, or is it a prejudice? Would you advocate this stance regarding non-virginal women to your friends? If you had a little brother, and he came to you for advice on women, would you tell him “Stay away from them dirty girls”, or would you tell him “Don’t have the same hangups as me – keep your options open.” Have you had girlfriends who were non-virgins before? How did that turn out? Or are you only predicting that you will be grossed out by an experienced woman? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/290 "2003-09-02T18:10:26Z")
Um, how old is the OP again? ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/291 "2003-09-02T20:25:36Z")
He said he’s 20 ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/292 "2003-09-02T21:54:27Z")
**Colinmarshall** , I’ve been aware of this thread for a few days and I’ve been trying to come up with an appropriate response. There are two points I’d like to make. When I was your age, I believed in remaining a virgin until marriage, and I lost my virginity in my late 20’s to a man who I loved dearly. We fully intended to marry and were taking steps to make that come about (if you will!). As things worked out, we didn’t marry. I do not consider myself used, nor do I consider myself loose or promiscuous, despite having managed to double my number of lovers in the 10 years since things ended! When and if the time comes for me to take a lover again, I have little doubt that the things I learned from that man will stand me and the gentleman I choose in very good stead. I’d like to know if you consider me loose or used, and, if so, why. I realize you may not know or be able to articulate why. Second, you compare your preference for virgins to a preference for blondes or women with breasts of a certain size. To me, there’s one key difference. After you’ve had sex with a blonde or a large- or small-chested woman, she remains a blonde, etc. After you’ve had sex with to a virgin, she is no longer a virgin. In other words, by indulging your preferences, you are depriving like-minded men of the opportunity to indulge their preferences with that particular woman. Just as your preference is not to have sex with women who are not virgins, my preference is to limit my association with a man who would require one behaviour in a sexual partner while not indulging in that behaviour himself. Bluntly, by requiring any woman you sleep with be a virgin while not, apparently, remaining one yourself, in my book, you’re a hypocrite, albeit an honest one. I’ll also say that, while my religious streak led to me prefering to remain a virgin until marriage, my engineer streak led to me preferring that the man I married not be one on the grounds that one of us should know what we were doing! 🙂 In practice, the combination worked. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/293 "2003-09-03T00:50:58Z")
Wow. **Giggle** ol’ boy really kept this thread alive. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/294 "2003-09-03T03:31:49Z")
Following up on istara’s anecdote of Saudi men preferring widowed/divorced mothers as mates, I have read the same thing of other cultures. They value fertility as children are essential for farm labour and to look after you in your old age. To take as mate a woman who turned out to be infertile is disastrous. In this light a virgin is a gamble and a woman who has proved her fertility is a more desirable mate. To me that makes more sense then any notion of a genetic/evolutionary preference for virgins does. I suspect most men do find the prospect of sleeping with a virgin arousing, to boldly go where no man has gone before etc, and there is an ego appeal of being selected as a girl’s first lover. But many things are exciting, George Bush in his undies is exciting (ok maybe not that) but when it’s an exclusive preference that makes you impotent with a girl that has any form of sexual experience (ie the norm) and this ‘gross out’ even extending to the girl having been kissed by another man, that isnt just a kink, its downright strange and unhealthy. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/295 "2003-09-03T03:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*I personally find the “wide hips” thing perplexing. Because nearly all the models we see today, and actresses, have TINY hips. Yet men still find these women very desirable, even though many of them have almost child-bodies. Eg Kylie Minogue. It’s encouraging that J-Lo and Beyonce are now also sex symbols, but hip-wise they’re in a tiny minority. (Plus neither of them actually have particularly large butts/hips - it just looks that way because they are more rounded than the average celebrity norm). > \*\* But, imho, that’s mainly Hollyweird and the fashion industry. I don’t think that they really count insofar as what **Men** “always” want. I have worked in male dominated fields almost since I left HS, guys are pretty easy to get along with once you learn “their” language (at least as friends, as romantic prospects??.. :D). Anyway, lots of my male coworkers expressed preference for the “monroe-esque” type figures, many preferred tall and skinny. Some liked slightly “chubby” girls, some liked BBWs, and some liked tiny child-like women. I think that with men, unlike Hollywood (though thanks to women like Jennifer Lopez and Beyonce even Holllywood seems to be at least giving curvy women a nod), that it’s as individual as they are, and has nothing to do with what pop culture says is attractive. Except perhaps among the very young, untried and shallow. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/296 "2003-09-15T02:10:46Z")
Seems to me like people are rushing a bit quick to make a diagnosis. Kinds of questions Id be interested in: How many relationships have you actually been in? How long were they? How many women did you view as potential partners then lose interest in when you found they werent virgins? What thoughts run through your mind when you find out shes a virgin? How powerful are these thoughts? When did you first become aware of having these kinds of thoughts? What kinds of theories do you have for why you think like this? Stuff like that. Otara ---
**Author:** ![feistyALgal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@feistyALgal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feistyALgal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/297 "2003-09-15T03:43:41Z")
You require them. There’s a big difference. From your post, you sound very immature. Sorry. If you see a woman’s entire WORTH wrapped up in her virginity, then I think the women out there who have had sex before should be very thankful that you’d never consider them. That’s what you’re saying when you require a virgin to sleep with. The rest are -not worthy- of your time. How quaint. The very thought that you could poke around where you (obviously) don’t belong and devirginize girls, and then call non-virgins (basically) used goods is OUTRAGEOUS. Don’t you see that YOU have created ‘USED GOODS’ by sleeping with these women? – How maniacle. And insulting to ALL women, virgin or not. I can only hope you’ve been LIED TO on several occasions, and you’ve been sleeping with USED GOODS and didn’t know it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740.md?page=14)