# Is it "wrong" to prefer untouched girls? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740 "2003-08-31T02:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Giggle\_Gaggle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@Giggle\_Gaggle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giggle_Gaggle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/121 "2003-08-31T23:08:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Well, put your money where your mouth is. Open a poll in IMHO asking if men prefer virgins or experienced women. Bet you they don’t. \*\* The men who frequent this board are completely unrepresentative of the general male population. The results couldn’t possibly be more unscientific. A more worthless exercise in futility has yet to be proposed in the history of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/122 "2003-08-31T23:14:23Z")
Yes. You claiming what’s what, is _much_ more scientific. Thanks, Spock. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/123 "2003-08-31T23:14:24Z")
Ok, find **some** proof of all the things you claim. Some cite that most men prefer virgins. Or that most men experience sexual dysfunction on their first sexual experience. Some proof of something? Or is everything you claims just bullshit??? ---
**Author:** ![Giggle\_Gaggle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@Giggle\_Gaggle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giggle_Gaggle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/124 "2003-08-31T23:21:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TonyJ \* > **But once the woman is not pregnant, it ceases to matter if she is a virgin or not - she can be impregnated, just the same as if she were a virgin.** Correct, so far as it goes. And you have the benefit of modern technology on your side, because you speak of a woman’s state of pregnancy as something that you can divine correctly and accurately within mere minutes. With today’s technology, you can do this. For the overwhelming portion of human history, you couldn’t. A man’s only chance at ensuring lots of pregnancies was to fuck lots of virgins. So societies developed various safeguards to prevent men from fucking lots of virgins – the institution of marriage, the concept of religion backing up the institution of marriage, the acceptance of the use of violence in maintaining monogamy and preventing promiscuity, and so on. Only the most alpha males got to fuck lots of virgins. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TonyJ \* > **I am purposely neglecting your risks. This is because the perception of these risks are on a different level than this preference; one is cognitive and the other instinctual.** Your neglect of the risks doesn’t make them any less effective. Anything that motivates human behavior is a factor. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TonyJ \* > **That is, the sex drive wants what it wants. That the woman a man is lusting for is married or may be pregnant or may have a disease is on a level different from the sex drive, and when a man stops himself from seducing his neighbor’s wife, it’s probably because he consciously - that’s the key word here - decides it wouldn’t be wise to do so.** There are multiple things going on here. Not only would he be risking his life for a very slim chance of creating offspring, but moreso, his fear of death kills his libido. Adrenaline will turn wood to mush. Read any intro bio textbook. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/125 "2003-08-31T23:21:59Z")
A couple of questions for **Colinmarshall** : Does your “gross-out” reaction also apply to _kissing_ a woman who’s kissed another man before? Does your “gross-out” reaction also apply to receiving oral sex from a woman who’s given oral sex to another man before? ---
**Author:** ![Giggle\_Gaggle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@Giggle\_Gaggle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giggle_Gaggle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/126 "2003-08-31T23:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*Some cite that most men prefer virgins. \*\* Various cultures are full of favorable references to virgins, and unfavorable references to nonvirgins. We speak of blushing brides, virginal maidens, and Virgin Mary, quite favorably. We speak of sluts, whores, floozies, and not entirely favorably. The idea of Heaven in Islam involves seventy two virgins for each man that makes it there. Eve fell from grace (and caused Adam to fall from grace) because she was seduced by a serpent to taste from the tree of knowledge, a not entirely delicate metaphor for a woman’s loss of her virginity. I’m not advocating that anyone believe any religion over another, or any religion at all, for that matter, but it’s clear that the idea of virgins being more preferable has taken hold over a variety of human cultures. You can’t do this with ideas that don’t, at their core, have significant appeal to the masses. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > **Or that most men experience sexual dysfunction on their first sexual experience.** I don’t see how this is still relevant to what we’re currently discussing. If you’re able to show how it is at all relevant, I’ll be mighty impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/127 "2003-08-31T23:47:28Z")
Well now, [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208201) certainly manages to put some of contentions posted here in context. ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/128 "2003-08-31T23:48:48Z")
I’ve often heard that “evolutionary reasons” theory to explain (or excuse) men’s promiscuity and the expectation that women should be faithful–if he sleeps around, he’ll be more likely to pass his genes along, but if she sleeps around, he’ll be more likely to end up raising some other man’s offspring. Never heard it used as an explanation for preferring virgins. And if there is anything to it, it’s still no excuse. Reason can trump instinct, if that’s what it is. I don’t follow every little urge that I get, because I am civilized and I live in society. Thinly veiled jealousy? Not in my case. I’ve slept with three virgins, I think, though I was hesitant. In each case, the relationship had been going on for a while, and they clearly and rationally insisted that they knew what they were doing and wanted to do it with me first. It was always kind of a chore, and not what I would call great sex. Give me an experienced woman any day. Of course, I’d hope that she takes a shower in between lovers, at least. I might be a little grossed out if I were to follow another man immediately. But jealous of a guy who sleeps with only virgins? Not a chance. I feel a little sorry for him. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/129 "2003-08-31T23:53:51Z")
**Giggle gaggle** Your first response consists of anecdotes. This is not the same as data. If you don’t see the difference, take a course in basic logic. As to the second issue, you don’t see whyat is relevant about asking you to give evidence to support one of your assertations??? > [@](#): > > If you take a survey among men regarding their first sexual experiences, you will find that the majority of them experienced some symptoms of erectile dysfunction in that first experience. The combination of an unfamiliar challenge and performance anxiety will cause any man difficulty in getting and maintaining an erection. You said it. You have been repeatedly asked to support it. You have refused and now say it’s irrelevant. And you won’t give any data about any of your other assertation either. Do I detect a trend? ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/130 "2003-08-31T23:59:48Z")
And there are a variety of cultures in which it has no particular value. Culturally speaking, the “value” of virginity has a strong correlation with patriarchally biased societies which are aware of the male’s role in sexual reproduction and place high value on accurate patrilineal property inheritance. As far as I’m aware, nobody without that in their history cares. The ancient Egyptians, for example, generally expected sexual experimentation before marriage and exclusivity within marriage; both spouses had property rights and either could get a divorce. (I believe that the husband provided 2/3 of the property and the wife 1/3; if they divorced they retained their separate shares, and if the husband died before the wife she retained usage of the 2/3 but it belonged to their children.) The “we” you speak of are in a set of cultures that has spent quite a lot of time vilifying and degrading female sexuality, firmly establishing a sexual double standard. Speaking as a woman: the madonna/whore dichotomy is just tedious. There are more than two boxes, if there have to be boxes at all, and I’m not interested in playing by a set of rules that presumes to try granting ownership of my vulva to anyone other than me. I’ve had people stubbornly refuse to acknowledge my existence (they pretended I wasn’t there), because they couldn’t assign me to either “madonna” or “whore”; this hasn’t led me to be very impressed with the grip on reality of people who think it has any validity. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/131 "2003-09-01T00:02:43Z")
> [@](#): > > MrO wrote: > > Reason can trump instinct, if that’s what it is. I don’t follow every little urge that I get, because I am civilized and I live in society. Exactly. If we always succumbed to “instinct,” we’d all be crapping in the middle of the street, or wherever the urge hit us to go. This “instinct” excuse is very often a bunch of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/132 "2003-09-01T00:04:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giggle Gaggle \* > **Your neglect of the risks doesn’t make them any less effective. Anything that motivates human behavior is a factor.** STDs are not gernerally an impediment to reproduction. A man who cathes one from the act has already done his part and passed his genes on. Evolution gives not a shit for the longevity of the individual, only his reproductive success, and the quality of his genes. And most STDs are not so immediately fatal that a female who catches one cannot live long enough to give birth. Since humans appear to always have had the capacity to adopt an orphaned child, the mother’s death from disease wouldn’t have mattered much either. Add to all of this the fact that STDs are simply not all that widespread, and you can see the risk is minimal. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giggle Gaggle \* > **The men who frequent this board are completely unrepresentative of the general male population. The results couldn’t possibly be more unscientific. A more worthless exercise in futility has yet to be proposed in the history of mankind.** Upon what do you base this assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/133 "2003-09-01T00:12:24Z")
**Giggle** , your logic is that a guy should go poking around in the vaginas of every woman he meets (which is what I’d _like_ to do, but…) to see if she has her hymen intact? What if she says she is, they’re getting intimate, and bang, he sees no hymen? ---
**Author:** ![Giggle\_Gaggle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@Giggle\_Gaggle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giggle_Gaggle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/134 "2003-09-01T00:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrO \* > **And if there is anything to it, it’s still no excuse. Reason can trump instinct, if that’s what it is. I don’t follow every little urge that I get, because I am civilized and I live in society.** I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Reason cannot give you wood. You can argue to death as to why a man should or should not have an erection for a particular woman, but if he is not excited, he just won’t have the erection. Without the erection, there won’t be ejaculation, and without ejaculation, there won’t be babies. In some cases, reason has nothing on instinct. ---
**Author:** ![Giggle\_Gaggle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@Giggle\_Gaggle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giggle_Gaggle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/135 "2003-09-01T00:34:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > **As to the second issue, you don’t see whyat is relevant about asking you to give evidence to support one of your assertations???** Unless this is directly relevant to the matter we are currently discussing, I see no reason to waste my time hunting around for cites on a completely inconsequential matter. Whether my assertion is proved, disproved, or remains unresolved, will have no bearing on the current debate. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/136 "2003-09-01T00:38:43Z")
Know what else would get rid of wood for a lot of guys? “I want to have your baby.” So much for instinct. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/137 "2003-09-01T00:44:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giggle Gaggle \* > \*\*Unless this is directly relevant to the matter we are currently discussing, I see no reason to waste my time hunting around for cites on a completely inconsequential matter. Whether my assertion is proved, disproved, or remains unresolved, will have no bearing on the current debate. \*\* What are you talking about? Your assertion that virginal males are spurned by females in favor of experienced males, since “the majority of them experienced some symptoms of erectile dysfunction in that first experience” and evolution has programmed females this way is perfectly germane to the discussion at hand. This is just your way of saying you made up this bit of information and have no intention of trying to back it up. If not that, then provide some evidence for your assertion that males prefer virgins. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/138 "2003-09-01T00:45:39Z")
Oh goody, now **Giggle Gaggle** admits that he can’t (and has no intention of trying to) give any evidence to prove any of his assertions. Can we start just ignoring this jerk now? His credibility is now zero. ---
**Author:** ![Giggle\_Gaggle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@Giggle\_Gaggle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giggle_Gaggle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/139 "2003-09-01T00:47:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > **STDs are not gernerally an impediment to reproduction.** STDs can kill, sterilize or severely disable a man who has decades of potency left in him. There’s more than one child to be sired, you know. There’s more than one woman to be fucked, too. It would not behoove a smart man to ruin his chances at spreading his seed across the gene pool by way of catching a disastrous STD and ruining his sexual career after a single lay. It pays to stick to virgins. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > **Upon what do you base this assertion?** First off, the burden of proof is on you to prove that the board is representative, not on me to disprove it. With that said, my initial impression indicates that the male board membership is mostly made up of computer-owning well-educated North American, Western European and Australians of higher-than-average IQ and lower-than-average social skills. This rules out 90% of the world male population right there. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740/140 "2003-09-01T00:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*Oh goody, now **Giggle Gaggle** admits that he can’t (and has no intention of trying to) give any evidence to prove any of his assertions. > > Can we start just ignoring this jerk now? His credibility is now zero. \*\* What do you mean _now_? I’m a **Gaggle of Giggle’s** posts ahead of you. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-prefer-untouched-girls/198740.md?page=8)