# Is it wrong to remain in the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 1, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339 "2020-02-01T19:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/21 "2020-02-01T23:43:05Z")
Assuming the OP is a Trump opponent, I can think of no headline Trump and the Republicans would love to read than, “40 million liberal Democrats decide to leave America permanently, in despair, thus assuring Republican electoral victories forever.” ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/22 "2020-02-01T23:44:01Z")
No, of course not. If _you personally_ want to leave the US and you are fortunate enough to have the ability to do so, go for it, but there’s nothing particularly virtuous about it. Places get worse, not better, when progressive, non-xenophobic people leave in large numbers. Look at Poland and Hungary, and at many states in the southern US. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/23 "2020-02-02T00:15:33Z")
> [@Majestic\_Lee](#): > > The grass isn’t always as green on the other side as it may look. True. There are assholes everywhere. The stark realization that we have 60 million of them was hard to take. I’m resigning myself to that fact, and although I may leave, it won’t be completely because the of the results of the 2020 elections. I’m leaning towards staying, whatever happens. I’ll just try to care less. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/24 "2020-02-02T00:46:29Z")
People who can’t bear to stay have my sympathy, but I think staying is the more ethical choice. The comparison to a bad employer isn’t really applicable, since most employees don’t get to vote for company presidents or policies. We need all the good people we can get, doing everything they can to right this wayward ship. Out of curiosity, if a blue-stater were to buy a second house in a swing state, what else would be required to be able to legally and legitimately vote in the swing state? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/25 "2020-02-02T01:30:17Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > What I’m struggling with is that I’m contributing to the economy. And I’m an unwitting accomplice in the whole system. I’m paying taxes that support the policies. > > I belong to most of the privilege groups including all the important ones, with the exception that I’m not in the top fraction of a percent of wealth where political power is. Tactically, life is comfortable. So it’s not how I’m getting treated that’s the problem. It’s what’s being carried out on my behalf. > > Kind of like discovering the club you belong to prevents entire categories of people from belonging. So donate to people who are trying to fix that. And vote. And do what else you can to improve things. That’s far more ethical, IMO, than ducking out and leaving those who can’t to carry the bag. Sure, if you really want to live somewhere else, and you can go live somewhere else, then go ahead. But I really wouldn’t recommend trying to claim it’s the only ethical choice. – Esprise Me, I think the swing state house would legally have to be claimed as the primary residence. I don’t know what the legal requirements are for doing that, and suspect they vary by state; but, if you’re going to vote in anything other than the presidential election, I think you ought to actually live there; not necessarily every day of the year, but enough of the year to really get a sense of the place. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/26 "2020-02-02T02:57:25Z")
A fairly small number of Americans refused to support the war in Vietnam. By their example of going to Canada, they opened the eyes of America, and brought about the end of the war. So a small number of Americans, by leaving, can have great influence. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/27 "2020-02-02T03:19:19Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Anybody else notice whenever people want to flee the United States it’s always to the whitest of countries? I’m not sure that it’s because they are white, but that they already speak a language most Americans sort-of understand. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/28 "2020-02-02T03:24:04Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > I’m not sure that it’s because they are white, but that they already speak a language most Americans sort-of understand. You ever tried to understand Danish or Norwegian? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/29 "2020-02-02T03:27:32Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I’m just haunted by the idea that it’s wrong of decent people to stay. No, decent people should stay here and take the country back. Don’t hand the country over to people like Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/30 "2020-02-02T03:29:27Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Anybody else notice whenever people want to flee the United States it’s always to the whitest of countries? Well, we fucked up the countries that aren’t white. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/31 "2020-02-02T03:30:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You ever tried to understand Danish or Norwegian? Heavens yes, some words are similar, but thankfully, most of them speak English. Nederlanders too. Wonderful people. Until I developed a sensitivity to sunlight, I used to think I’d want to move to Botswana because I have met some lovely people from there as well. Now though, I should just dig a hole and hide. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/32 "2020-02-02T03:41:51Z")
SMH. Only on the Dope can you get a debate about the ethics of remaining an American. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/33 "2020-02-02T03:47:41Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > What I’m struggling with is that I’m contributing to the economy. And I’m an unwitting accomplice in the whole system. I’m paying taxes that support the policies. You still have to file US tax returns even when living overseas, though **permanent** residents in a foreign country may qualify for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to protect some of their overseas earnings. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/34 "2020-02-02T04:27:44Z")
Where would we go? Given the way the US treats immigration of late, what country would take those of us that left? What jobs would be there for us? How quickly could we assimilate? Would the country we went to be able to take us in without damaging their own interests? Just vote the bastard out. If he gets another term we have only ourselves to blame. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/35 "2020-02-02T07:13:18Z")
In much of the world, folks know they live in police states. Americans mostly haven’t figured that out yet. We’ve seriously considered emigrating but we’re rather old and poor for that now. Escape is for youngsters. Anyway, society must totally go to shit before Americans will bother changing things. Tramp may be a trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/36 "2020-02-02T09:43:37Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > …Staying in order to vote sounds good superficially, but I live in a very blue state and my votes in the presidential election are relatively worthles… You still get to vote for state senators, your local (last residence in the U.S.) representative and the president. That is, the federal politicians. You don’t get to vote for the mayor and other local politicians, but this may vary depending on your current location. > [@Napier](#): > > What I’m struggling with is that I’m contributing to the economy. And I’m an unwitting accomplice in the whole system. I’m paying taxes that support the policies… > [@elfkin477](#): > > You still have to file US tax returns even when living overseas, though **permanent** residents in a foreign country may qualify for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to protect some of their overseas earnings. Make sure to move someplace without a negative interest rate and strong local currency. FEIC is only good for $105,000, which sounds like a lot. Unless you live in a very expensive country with equally high salaries. FATCA sucks. And expect to pay accountants for both your local and U.S. taxes. It’s actually quite different to move overseas unless you have a certain skillset and/or work for an international company who wants you to move. It’s better to improve the system from within. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Maple\_Leaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a8b319/32.png) [@The\_Maple\_Leaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Maple_Leaf)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/37 "2020-02-02T11:58:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If all the decent people who can afford to do so leave, that would be a guarantee that things would get worse, wouldn’t it? > > And then what about all those who can’t get out? This. No, why would you be obligated to leave? It’s your country and you are entitled to stay there regardless of what other citizens are like. And instead of leaving it, why not try to do what you can to improve things there? Why not at least do your little bit to make life better there for those around you? ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/38 "2020-02-02T12:14:40Z")
Here’s the kind of thing I think is most relevant: These are the countries classed as “Full Democracies” in the 2019 Democracy Index, in order starting with the most democratic (see the Wikipedia article on “Democracy Index”): Norway Ireland Sweden New Zealand Finland Ireland Denmark Canada Australia Switzerland Netherlands Luxembourg Germany United Kingdom Uruguay Austria Spain Mauritius Costa Rica France Chile Portugal The United States ranks #25, in the “Flawed democracy” category. These are the top 20 countries in the 2018 Good Country Index (“a measure of what each country on earth contributes to the common good of humanity” - [goodcountry.org](http://goodcountry.org)), in order starting with the best (see Wikipedia article on “Good Country Index”): Finland Netherlands Ireland Sweden Germany Denmark Switzerland Norway France Spain Canada Bulgaria Belgium Estonia United Kingdom Luxembourg New Zealand Austria Italy Australia The United States ranks #40. Russia ranks #41. There is a preponderance of white people in these lists, it’s true. I wish that weren’t the case. I appreciate the sentiment that we should vote, that we get whom we deserve, that if Trump is elected again it’s our fault. But this isn’t true. Democracy does not actually function fully here – we’re a minority rule country and becoming more so rapidly (and yet I still always vote). For a good overview see: > **[Opinion | The U.S. is in a state of perpetual minority rule](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-is-in-a-state-of-perpetual-minority-rule/2018/11/08/9f9f38a0-e2b1-11e8-8f5f-a55347f48762_story.html)** > > Gerrymandering and small-state vote distortions mean that Democrats earn millions more votes each year on the way to losing elections. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/39 "2020-02-02T12:20:26Z")
Look up what a refugee is? Do you qualify - use your own judgement? If yes there is nothing morally incorrect about leaving. Also if you can overthrow the government and establish another one that seems fine and dandy too with everyone. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/40 "2020-02-02T12:37:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If all the good people had bailed out the US during the bad times, then we’d still have slavery, child laborers, no enfranchisement for women, and no environmental regulations. We’re well on the way to the last one on that list. If the party in power stays there long enough, I’m sure they’ll get around to the rest of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339.md?page=3)