# Is it wrong to remain in the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 1, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339 "2020-02-01T19:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/61 "2020-02-02T21:54:41Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > If I were you, I would move to a place in Southern Europe where I could enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and forget all about politics. It’s not worth it. Life is beautiful. This is absolutely an aside, but every time I see your name I’m reminded of a summer I spent researching two variable stars in Scutum. I think maybe one was TT or TY and have no clue what was the other. It was 1979 I think, on Nantucket in Massachusetts. Life was beautiful, like you say. But i don’t think I could forget politics, and not because of whether it’s worth it. I can’t go back to '79. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/62 "2020-02-02T22:02:42Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > When I read about the rise of the Nazis in pre-WWII Germany, back in high school, I always wondered why the average German didn’t just… leave. Well, now I know why- because it’s a death by a thousand cuts. Each change is just incremental-nobody notices them, because they’re so small. It’s only in hindsight that it’s possible to see how much things have changed, how different the country has become. It’s not just the “death by a thousand cuts” - millions of people are simply _not wanted_ by other countries. They can’t leave. Not without becoming an illegal immigrant somewhere else. > [@Lightnin](#): > > Obviously, it’s very difficult to just move to another country, so I started actively looking for work in other countries. For about six months, it looked likely that I’d be offered a job in Barcelona, but that fell through. When the job in Canada came up in my searches, I jumped on it. I’m not regretting my decision, but I must admit that I’m not a huge fan of the winter here. How old are you? What skills do you have? Past 50 and with skills that, while great 30 years ago, are now largely outmoded it’s is extremely unlikely I could get a job even in Canada. Lots of people fall into the “too old to hire, too young to retire” category. Although even if moving to another country was an option for me I think there’s some merit to the “stay and try to make things better” argument. Certainly, this is a conundrum for many of us. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/63 "2020-02-02T22:09:15Z")
As a practical matter, moving to another country isn’t as easy as one might think. My wife and I like England, and she had the opportunity to move there for a few years to study. Turns out, unless you have a few hundred grand to spend, there is _no way_ to do that - unless you have guaranteed employment, or can put up a (large) bond, you can’t get a long-term visa. We finally gave up trying to find an angle. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/64 "2020-02-02T22:37:53Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > True, there’s nowhere you can run from the US. But part of the reason for that is that we all contribute to making the US powerful. Yeah, and that’s a good thing. Whether it’s good for the world is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether it’s good for Americans, of which you are one. The whole premise of this thread is farcical. “Oh, it’s so wrong to be part of a powerful nation.” It’s a joke, right? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/65 "2020-02-02T23:09:05Z")
One ought not to stick one’s head in the sand no matter where you are, but if, let’s say, you were offered a great job in Spain, you are under absolutely no obligation not to go. After X years of residency, you will be eligible to vote there, and naturally every place has plenty of hot issues. Global migration can be positive as well, not only a response to war or crisis. It should be seen as normal, neither a moral obligation or slap in the face. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/66 "2020-02-02T23:17:57Z")
[double-posted] ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/67 "2020-02-03T01:04:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How old are you? > > What skills do you have? 51, lots of video game development experience. And yes, I’m aware that I was extremely lucky to be able to immigrate into Canada. I’m doing my best to get my citizenship… well, in about four years or so. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/68 "2020-02-03T02:37:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Are you sure that’s what brought about the end of the war, rather than the much larger number of Americans who stayed Americans and made clear their objections to it? That would be like saying Rosa Parks had little or no influence on desegregation, it was the voters. Rosa Parks had the courage to refuse to obey an unjust law, which inspired an electorate to change it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/69 "2020-02-03T03:11:25Z")
I don’t think that leaving the USA to avoid the draft was generally seen as a statement of principle meant to draw attention to problems with the war. It was generally seen as a way to keep one’s own ass out of it, without risking going to jail for refusing. People who already opposed the war were often sympathetic with this; people who favored the war generally seemed to think they were cowards. I think the Vietnam veterans who came back home and [threw their medals over the fence of the US Capitol](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/04/24/archives/veterans-discard-medals-in-war-protest-at-capitol-veterans-discard.html) had a lot more impact, myself. I don’t know that there’s any way to measure such things precisely, though. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/70 "2020-02-03T03:23:58Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Where would we go? Given the way the US treats immigration of late, what country would take those of us that left? What jobs would be there for us? How quickly could we assimilate? Would the country we went to be able to take us in without damaging their own interests? > > Just vote the bastard out. If he gets another term we have only ourselves to blame. Right, because all other countries had open door policies before Trump. It’s funny how many Americans think they can just move to other countries on a whim and will be welcomed with open arms as if we are the only ones with limits on immigration. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/71 "2020-02-03T03:56:35Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I’m just haunted by the idea that it’s wrong of decent people to stay. > > What do you think? It sure looks bleak right now and some things – like the makeup of the Supreme Court – will be around for a while. But political pendulums tend to swing over to the other side when they’ve gone to extremes, and that will probably happen to at least some extent in 2020. There may even be an object lesson there in never again allowing a relatively small group of uninformed bigots to dominate the political process as a result of the apathy of the majority. For all of its problems, the US is still very far from Trump’s vision of a fascist dictatorship. My brother and his family took out US citizenship many years ago and now that he’s retired, is thinking of coming back to Canada where he lived most of his life. Of course he bitches like hell about the current situation, but even he – despite his intimate familiarity with the nuances of Canadian culture – would find the adjustments difficult to make after all these decades, not to mention the stress of the move itself. > [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > If the US sucks as badly as the OP seems to think it does, then why do we have a border crisis and millions of uninvited aliens? Maybe because so many countries in the world totally suck, to the extent of being dangerous places where your very life is at stake, and the life and welfare of your family. Many who have managed to get into the US illegally keep right on going and head for Canada, especially in the Trump era, which has created immigration crises at some border points. They happily surrender to Canadian border authorities because to them, it’s the best of all currently possible worlds. > [@Asuka](#): > > Anybody else notice whenever people want to flee the United States it’s always to the whitest of countries? No. I’ve noticed that people want to flee to countries that seem to them to be most culturally similar and with economic opportunities. That’s more likely to be Canada, the UK, or Australia than it is to be Nigeria or Zimbabwe. Although those coming to Canada and settling in the biggest cities like Toronto and Vancouver would be shocked to discover – if they happened to be bigots – that depending on what stats you read both cities are either majority non-white or very close to it. One professor recently quotes Stats Canada statistics that within about 18 years the population of Vancouver will be 70% non-white. There’s the additional burden of being accepted for immigration. Canada is one of the more open countries in that respect, but even here, aside from refugee asylum-seekers, there is a rigid point system that takes into account education and work experience, among other things. Immigrating in either direction between the US and Canada is trivial if you’re a superstar in some area of business, academic, artistic, or sports achievement, but otherwise in many cases is well-nigh impossible. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/72 "2020-02-03T04:38:33Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > That would be like saying Rosa Parks had little or no influence on desegregation, it was the voters. Rosa Parks had the courage to refuse to obey an unjust law, which inspired an electorate to change it. It’s nowhere near the same thing. Ms. Parks’ action led to the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which sparked the Civil Rights Movement. Those draftees who fled to Canada did not spark the anti-war movement. The protests and sit-ins were already happening, and _they_ ed to some draftees fleeing to Canada. So you had it exactly backward. 20,000-30,000 draftees fled to Canada. They mostly slipped over the border one or two at a time, unnoticed. While Americans were aware of the situation and it certainly underscored the depth of feeling behind the protests, the exodus to Canada didn’t have nearly as big an impact as the 500,000 protestors who demonstrated in DC, or the hundreds of thousands who protested elsewhere. It didn’t have as big an impact as the Tet Offensive, the Pentagon Papers, or night after night of footage of casualties on the news. As for me, this is my country, and I’ll go down with the ship, fighting all the way. There’s no way I’d leave this place to the Mitch McConnells and Trump supporters. Besides, we go, who speaks up for the less fortunate? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/73 "2020-02-03T05:05:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Right, because all other countries had open door policies before Trump. > > It’s funny how many Americans think they can just move to other countries on a whim and will be welcomed with open arms as if we are the only ones with limits on immigration. This is pretty much where I come down on the question. 1. The rest of the world ain’t all that great, either. Even those bastions of liberal democracy that everyone likes to point to as “so much more tolerant” do things like: ban face coverings with the specific intent of targeting muslim women (France), ban minarets attached to mosques (Switzerland), and cram—or dare I say, “concentrate”—their most undesirable immigrants onto an island as well as force the rest to put their children through cultural assimilation training (Denmark). Oh, and also Australia, which has arranged for an entirely different island nation with wholly inadequate facilities to house people trying to immigrate or seek asylum in Australia by boat. 2. Don’t necessarily want you, the random American—or indeed any immigrant who can’t fill a niche in their much more homogenous culture. None of this excuses the horror show that is US immigration (or rather anti-immigration) policy or US heavy-handed ness abroad (although I’d encourage anyone who believes that US foreign policy is strictly or even primarily to the detriment of the rest of the world to ponder just how friendly Russia and China would be as they step in to fill the void the US leaves if it turns full-blown isolationist), but I think people have a nasty tendency to assume that our faults aren’t replicated elsewhere. Oh, and fun fact. Did you know that in Germany it’s actually illegal to disparage their version of democracy? It’s in the same section of law that makes it illegal to promote Nazi ideology. While the latter prohibition seems understandable enough, perhaps the former goes some way to explaining why you don’t hear quite so much criticism of Germany under the “Christian Democratic Union” as you do of our “American theocracy” (as some posters have described the influence of religion on government in the US). Ooo! And on that note, let’s not forget the rules the UK still has in place about “papists” (my term) marrying into the royal family. So no. You are not, IMHO, wrong to remain in the US, and I would highly encourage you to look into what the protestors (every nation has them) are on about in other countries, and how their police forces respond. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/74 "2020-02-03T09:08:58Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > It’s nowhere near the same thing. > > Ms. Parks’ action led to the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which sparked the Civil Rights Movement. > > Those draftees who fled to Canada did not spark the anti-war movement. The protests and sit-ins were already happening, and _they_ ed to some draftees fleeing to Canada. So you had it exactly backward. According to Wikipedia: “September 21, 1963. War Resisters League organizes\*\*\* first \*\*\*U.S. protest against Vietnam War and “anti-Buddhist terrorism” by the U.S.-supported South Vietnamese regime with a demonstration at the U.S. Mission to the UN in New York City.” I know an American who had already been in Canada for over a year by that date, disobeying orders to report to Vietnam with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/75 "2020-02-03T14:07:55Z")
Cracked had an article on this nine years ago: > **[6 Reasons Your Plans to Move Abroad Might Not Work Out](https://www.cracked.com/article_19363_6-reasons-your-plans-to-move-abroad-might-not-work-out.html)** > > Every month or so, you probably know of someone who just gets fed up with America and wants to leave. Make sure you show them this first. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/76 "2020-02-03T15:14:26Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > If I were you, I would move to a place in Southern Europe where I could enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and forget all about politics. It’s not worth it. Life is beautiful. There are politics everywhere. If you’re able to ignore politics in some other place, you’re able to ignore them here, too. If you can’t ignore politics, then you’re going to be worrying both about your home politics and the local politics. ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/77 "2020-02-03T16:10:22Z")
This feels like such a bizarre thing to worry about. If you don’t like it here, move. If you do, stay. I honestly don’t get the people who complain about each and every single thing, yet continue to stay. Obviously the US is far from perfect, and I’m not at all opposed to people who want to change things. But if it’s so bad you’re convinced no good comes from the US, everything is horrible, all these other countries are better, we’re a moral wasteland, etc etc, then…just go? See how well it goes for you elsewhere. Mail me a letter :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/78 "2020-02-03T16:19:08Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > This is pretty much where I come down on the question. > > 1. The rest of the world ain’t all that great, either. Even those bastions of liberal democracy that everyone likes to point to as “so much more tolerant” do things like: ban face coverings with the specific intent of targeting muslim women (France), ban minarets attached to mosques (Switzerland), and cram—or dare I say, “concentrate”—their most undesirable immigrants onto an island as well as force the rest to put their children through cultural assimilation training (Denmark). Oh, and also Australia, which has arranged for an entirely different island nation with wholly inadequate facilities to house people trying to immigrate or seek asylum in Australia by boat. > > 2. Don’t necessarily want you, the random American—or indeed any immigrant who can’t fill a niche in their much more homogenous culture. > > None of this excuses the horror show that is US immigration (or rather anti-immigration) policy or US heavy-handed ness abroad (although I’d encourage anyone who believes that US foreign policy is strictly or even primarily to the detriment of the rest of the world to ponder just how friendly Russia and China would be as they step in to fill the void the US leaves if it turns full-blown isolationist), but I think people have a nasty tendency to assume that our faults aren’t replicated elsewhere. > > Oh, and fun fact. Did you know that in Germany it’s actually illegal to disparage their version of democracy? It’s in the same section of law that makes it illegal to promote Nazi ideology. While the latter prohibition seems understandable enough, perhaps the former goes some way to explaining why you don’t hear quite so much criticism of Germany under the “Christian Democratic Union” as you do of our “American theocracy” (as some posters have described the influence of religion on government in the US). Ooo! And on that note, let’s not forget the rules the UK still has in place about “papists” (my term) marrying into the royal family. > > So no. You are not, IMHO, wrong to remain in the US, and I would highly encourage you to look into what the protestors (every nation has them) are on about in other countries, and how their police forces respond. Awesome contribution. The US is far from perfect, but I’m pretty happy here, and while there are no doubt other countries I’d feel happy in as well (I tend to ignore politics for the most part), why put in the effort to move when I’m perfectly fine here? Like you said, other countries have their own shortcomings as well. The bashing the US gets from people who live here and enjoy a LOT of benefits and privileges they don’t even care to acknowledge is really insane. ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/79 "2020-02-03T16:24:05Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Immigrating in either direction between the US and Canada is trivial if you’re a superstar in some area of business, academic, artistic, or sports achievement, but otherwise in many cases is well-nigh impossible. Interesting. I’ll have to let my mom know, even though she has absolutely no shortage of ESL students (mostly Mexican), ordinary folks who arrive here with nothing and go on to become US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/80 "2020-02-03T17:19:07Z")
@ OP — Your priority should be to do what’s best for you and your family. Unless you have a cushy job lined up in another country, the best course is most probably to stay in the U.S. with your successful career. (I’m assuming that forced conversations with Trump-lickers aren’t frustrating you and driving you batso — a reason I’ve no plans to return to U.S.) If you feel a moral obligation to oppose the Republican autocracy and to work for its downfall, that can best be accomplished _inside_ the U.S. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339.md?page=5)