# Is it wrong to remain in the United States? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 1, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339 "2020-02-01T19:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/81 "2020-02-03T17:25:43Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > According to Wikipedia: “September 21, 1963. War Resisters League organizes\*\*\* first \*\*\*U.S. protest against Vietnam War and “anti-Buddhist terrorism” by the U.S.-supported South Vietnamese regime with a demonstration at the U.S. Mission to the UN in New York City.” > > I know an American who had already been in Canada for over a year by that date, disobeying orders to report to Vietnam with a gun. And that proves what, exactly? If anything, the fact that people were leaving long before the war became unpopular tends to show the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/82 "2020-02-03T17:27:24Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > When I read about the rise of the Nazis in pre-WWII Germany, back in high school, I always wondered why the average German didn’t just… leave. Well, now I know why- because it’s a death by a thousand cuts. Each change is just incremental-nobody notices them, because they’re so small. It’s only in hindsight that it’s possible to see how much things have changed, how different the country has become. > > Me, I moved to Canada almost a year ago. I looked around and saw that things weren’t going to get better, at least not before they got a lot worse. So far, I gotta say it’s looking like I was right. So… yay me? > > Obviously, it’s very difficult to just move to another country, so I started actively looking for work in other countries. For about six months, it looked likely that I’d be offered a job in Barcelona, but that fell through. When the job in Canada came up in my searches, I jumped on it. I’m not regretting my decision, but I must admit that I’m not a huge fan of the winter here. I’ve heard it’s pretty difficult to move to Canada? Mind sharing how you went about doing it? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/83 "2020-02-03T17:34:16Z")
Like the employee who has never worked anywhere else, I have no familiarity with life in other countries (tourist experience doesn’t seem relevant) and I don’t know who’d want a guy in his 60s who would need income for at least a few more years (even assuming USA retirement continues to exist / the US dollar doesn’t become the new useless inflated currency and eat my investments’ usefulness). I’m willing and able to work and I have some skills for which I’ve been paid and stuff. Anyone in some other country think your nation would want to have me? I’ve always thought it would be good to not live my whole life in just one country anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/84 "2020-02-03T17:48:04Z")
So I guess we will have to build a wall in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and the USA is going to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/85 "2020-02-03T18:24:03Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > Interesting. I’ll have to let my mom know, even though she has absolutely no shortage of ESL students (mostly Mexican), ordinary folks who arrive here with nothing and go on to become US citizens. ESL has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is well stated here: America’s immigration system is designed to only admit newcomers who fall into very specific categories. If someone falls outside those cases, as many central American migrants do, lawful immigration will be challenging, if not impossible. > **[Jeff Sessions said immigrants should 'wait their turn' to come to the US —...](https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-green-card-visa-legal-immigration-us-news-trump-2017-4)** > > Americans often tell immigrants to "get in line" to come to the US. For many people, there is no line. For instance, the Trump administration urged the "caravan" migrants to "wait their turn" to immigrate — but many may have no alternative but to... More here: > **[Can You Get a U.S. Green Card? Eligibility Quiz](https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/can-you-get-green-card-eligibility-quiz.html)** > > An introduction to whether you might be eligible for a U.S. green card (lawful permanent residence) based on family, employment, or other categories. What it amounts to is that if you don’t fall into one of the special categories, are not a refugee claiming asylum (or, often, even if you are), and are not a visa lottery winner from a designated country, then legal immigration to the US may be difficult to impossible. We had this discussion on this board before but I can’t find it now. Someone was saying that the average Joe working the average job in a modern western country would have essentially zero chance of getting a permanent US resident and work visa, barring an international corporate transfer, having immediate relatives in the US, or being in one of the other special categories, and I completely agreed with that. It’s slightly easier to get into Canada because of the points qualification system. Here are a bunch of stories about thousands of Americans who have moved to Canada for reasons similar to those articulated in the OP: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21652347&postcount=75](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21652347&postcount=75) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/86 "2020-02-03T19:08:40Z")
If you are a worker, not a businessman or investor or retiree, the usual way to get a visa to reside in a new country is to have a permanent job offer in hand. Of course, you still may have obstacles if you are not in good health, or are over 60 and have to deal with mandatory retirement policies (the age is starting to increase in many countries, though.) As for immigration TO the US, well, I know a couple of people who were able to get in with a good visa (O visa, which can be extended indefinitely) but even then it wasn’t a matter of showing up with a crumpled-up offer of employment; the sponsoring organization really had to put in some resources to generate the phonebook of required paperwork. I equally know talented people who were unable to immigrate to the US because of these visa complications and had to move to places like Australia and Sweden rather than contribute to the US economy which was their first choice. The Chinese and Mongolians are also hiring (though probably not at the salaries you want). If you are over 60 and want to retire somewhere and have enough money to support yourself without working, you might also consider a non-working residency permit- you won’t be able to seek employment, but (if that’s OK) at least you can live out your dream of living in a different country. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/87 "2020-02-03T23:00:02Z")
I’d love to live and work in Canada, but they aren’t interested. I’m 59. I have tried a few times to get contracting jobs there, but either they haven’t nibbled or, with a couple of contracts, the project either fell through or got shelved before I started. Waah. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/88 "2020-02-03T23:01:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Cracked had an article on this nine years ago: > > [6 Reasons Your Plans to Move Abroad Might Not Work Out | Cracked.com](https://www.cracked.com/article_19363_6-reasons-your-plans-to-move-abroad-might-not-work-out.html) Wow. This is very eye opening. I can’t judge how accurate or current it is, but it certainly makes moving sound awful. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/89 "2020-02-04T02:11:42Z")
I’ve actually lived and worked in Canada, sponsored by my employer. The GTA. It was always nice to come home, because, like Dorothy says, paraphrased, there ain’t quite no other place quite like it. How to get in: have a job, and it’s pretty easy. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/90 "2020-02-04T07:02:16Z")
Lots of celebrities have said they’d leave the USA if {Bush, Trump, whoever} was elected/re-elected. How many actually have? What does that tell you? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/91 "2020-02-04T14:19:44Z")
It is not wrong to remain. A patriotic American should stay and vote and fight to change the things he or she doesn’t like about this country, and stay and vote and fight to keep the things he or she does like. Democracy is a journey, not a destination. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/92 "2020-02-04T16:11:37Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > The only way to get away from the nightmare is to take control of the voting system. That means wealthy liberals on the coasts need to move to low population states that are red. Pennsylvania and Wisconsin should be the first targets but after that picking up ID(1.7), MT(1.1), WY(0.58), ND(0.76), SD(0.88), NE(1.9) would almost guarantee the Republicans never won again. Be one of the 7 million and you’ll make a huge difference in the world. I am not being snarky or facetious when I say that this is at once one of the most comforting, and insightful, posts I’ve ever read on the SDMB. I have very seriously considered looking into moving to South America before the shit hits the fan. But after reading this, I’m convinced that staying here in Missouri (once a swing state, but has since drunk the Trump Kool Aid) is the right thing to do. Sure, my blue vote is just one of a million or so, but better I cast that vote than don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/93 "2020-02-04T18:41:17Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > I’ve heard it’s pretty difficult to move to Canada? Mind sharing how you went about doing it? Short answer- I got lucky. Long answer- I’m a specialist, in a very specialized field, with 20+ years of experience in an industry in which the average professional lifespan is five years. Furthermore, Alberta (where I moved) was (at the time) investing heavily into tech to try to ease out of relying only upon oil for its economy. That changed, though, when the conservative party got into control a few months ago, of course- now it’s oil all the way. A friend of mine had been working remotely with this company, and announced over Facebook that they were looking for someone with my experience. The company snatched me up, and helped me get my work visa. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/94 "2020-02-04T18:48:40Z")
I’d like to move to Sweden, I really would, but I have no job waiting for me there and know no one. They’d be crazy to let me in, and so they wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/95 "2020-02-04T19:07:48Z")
Thirty years ago a woman I knew married an Australian. All of his family was in Australia, while she had no family anywhere. They logically decided to head to Australia. He, as a citizen, was welcomed back home. While his wife could accompany him, she could not work in her field, as that would potentially be taking a job away from a citizen. They struggled along for a while, but after about 5 years she was ok’d for work. ---
**Author:** ![RomeoOscarMike116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RomeoOscarMike116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RomeoOscarMike116)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/96 "2020-02-04T19:40:59Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > A fairly small number of Americans refused to support the war in Vietnam. By their example of going to Canada, they opened the eyes of America, and brought about the end of the war. So a small number of Americans, by leaving, can have great influence. I understand why the Vietnam war was unpopular - sending our young men to die in a jungle halfway around the world seems ridiculous on its face. But consider the consequences, and the similar example of South Korea. “In 1975, it appeared that the Vietnam War was a clear loss for the United States. But while much of Indochina did become Communist, validating the domino theory to an extent, the war left mostly psychological scars in the United States. It did not affect the United States’ status as a superpower, and though North Vietnam “won” the war, realizing Ho Chi Minh’s lifelong dream, Vietnam’s postwar period was filled with more fighting, poverty, and suffering for its people. Today, as capitalism makes inroads in Vietnam, one would hardly suspect that Communists won the war in 1975.” - SparkNotes. Compare that to the economic, liberal, and democratic success of South Korea (especially vs. the North), and you cannot argue that the U.S. giving up in Vietnam was a net positive for that country. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/97 "2020-02-04T21:35:45Z")
Switzerland would welcome you if you have brains (and money of course) but the problems are the same here, except we don’t have no nincompoops at the top. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/98 "2020-02-05T02:59:52Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I’d like to move to Sweden, I really would, but I have no job waiting for me there and know no one. They’d be crazy to let me in, and so they wouldn’t. As I mentioned, I know somebody who did just that, and IMHO it ought to be, in the absence of other information, seen as neutral to move from the USA to Sweden or vice versa, no better or worse than moving from Denmark to Sweden. Maybe it was a personal career move; why assume it was a political statement? Also some Swedes move out, and not always to EU or Western or even first-world countries. BTW you don’t have to be an Olympic gold medalist or anything, but, like most countries, generally speaking you need a job offer in hand _before_ heading to Sweden in order to get your work permit, and, as usual, that job will need to have been advertised for ten days or so in the EU before they can offer it to you. So, realistically, they will need to have you specifically in mind for the job, so you will absolutely need to know them (perhaps from a previous temporary gig in Sweden during which you impressed them). ETA but, yeah, like people are saying, before you move to Sweden or Switzerland or South Korea or anywhere else, make sure it’s not just because you imagine the grass is greener there. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/99 "2020-02-05T03:06:56Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > And that proves what, exactly? If anything, the fact that people were leaving long before the war became unpopular tends to show the opposite. It proves, exactly, that the specific post I was responding to was wrong. It said protests preceded draft-relayed emigration to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339/100 "2020-02-06T23:25:04Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > If you agree with the way things are run, vote. > > If you don’t like the way things are run, join a political party. And here we are: > [@Iowa Caucus Discussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iowa-caucus-discussion/847465/16): > > Hi! Out of 125 registered Dems in my precinct… 17 showed up. I was the only Sanders person other than the nice guy from Washington (the State) who was out caucusing/door knocking etc. for Bernie. He didn’t get to vote, of course. > > Warren was close but didn’t have the 5 warm bodies to make it to the second round. > > Buttigieg had 2 people. > > I reluctantly moved to the Biden group. > > At the end of the night Biden and Klobuchar each got a delegate to send to the State caucus. If you want to have an effect on the political future of America, you don’t have to limit yourself to voting in the presidential election once every 4 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-wrong-to-remain-in-the-united-states/847339.md?page=6)