# Is James Lindsay's description of Wokeness accurate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177 "2020-11-09T21:16:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/45 "2020-11-10T16:33:33Z")
An example that comes to mind. I’m at a scientific conference right now. All of the presentations are in English, and generally, most publications are in English. Being a native English speaker, I have a tremendous advantage in science. It is far easier for me to get papers published, it is easier for me to be understood at conferences. Is this inherently racist? No. Am I racist for having this advantage? No. Is it systemically racist and rooted in historical racism? Yes. Of course, it is. English is the dominant language in science (and other domains) primarily because of the British Empire and the policies surrounding colonialism and imperialism, which were racist. Being “woke” means understanding this last point. It doesn’t mean I need to flog myself. It doesn’t mean I need to feel guilty about it. It means I should be aware of it, and I should make an active effort to counter the system of privilege, i.e., being anti-racist. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/46 "2020-11-10T16:50:48Z")
I didn’t listen to the whole thing. Most of it sounded like pseudo-scientific philosophical bullshit to me. But as a general rule, I am extremely skeptical of any longwinded, rambling, quasi-scientific, explanations that try to tell people: - You aren’t being repressed - You are being lied to about being repressed - There is a natural order to things that we need to accept that just happens to work out where I am on the upper end and you are on the lower end It actually explains a lot of Trumpism. Keep telling people there is no objective or scientific truth and it’s just Liberals trying to exert power and influence. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I knew someone once who grew up in the Pacific Northwest. When I lived out west and mentioned that I missed seeing fireflies in the summer, she gave me a “Quit messing around” look and said, “Fireflies aren’t real. Are they?” > > She wasn’t stupid. Ehhhhhhh…that’s kind of something a stupid person might say. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/47 "2020-11-10T16:53:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Ehhhhhhh…that’s kind of something a stupid person might say. This was in college, and she was first-year, so she might’ve been 18 or 19. I don’t think it’s stupid, just reflects a very different life experience. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/48 "2020-11-10T16:53:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Ehhhhhhh…that’s kind of something a stupid person might say. That’s the kind of thing “wokeness” addresses. Someone isn’t stupid just because they have a different life experience than you do. I knew fireflies were real, but assumed their portrayal in movies and cartoons was greatly exaggerated until I saw them in person for the first time last year. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/49 "2020-11-10T17:33:00Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Is it systemically racist and rooted in historical racism? Yes. Of course, it is. English is the dominant language in science (and other domains) primarily because of the British Empire and the policies surrounding colonialism and imperialism, which were racist. I think I know what you mean here when you say “rooted in historical racism” but I don’t know what you mean in this statement by “systematically racist”. Can you elaborate? Since it is enormously convenient for there to be a single language of science, what would a choice of language that is not systematically racist look like? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/50 "2020-11-10T18:00:08Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > Since it is enormously convenient for there to be a single language of science, what would a choice of language that is not systematically racist look like? “Racist” and “convenient” aren’t opposites. Something can be enormously convenient and racially unfair at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/51 "2020-11-10T18:00:33Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > Since it is enormously convenient for there to be a single language of science, what would a choice of language that is not systematically racist look like? Every language is going to be systemically beneficial to one group over another. The point isn’t to completely eliminate this; it is to recognize it, take its effect into account, and make adjustments accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/52 "2020-11-10T18:08:03Z")
Something like Esperanto that is nobody’s first language . Think of it this way: Everything is a trade off in time and effort. We don’t make doctors learn Latin anymore because we think that their time would be better spent learning medicine. A Chinese physicist needs to spend significant time studying the English language to be able to keep up to date with current research and get published. That is effort that a native English speaker does not have to expend. More importantly, if English is the official language of science, then research conducted by English speakers has an advantage in the global market space. And if you don’t acknowledge this you are not accurate judging the quality of the work done and then it looks like English speakers are just naturally better at science and deserve more grants, more published papers, and more prestigious positions. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/53 "2020-11-10T18:22:35Z")
Wokeness isn’t necessarily about making things better for the worse off as much as making things worse for the better off. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/54 "2020-11-10T18:25:55Z")
Cite? ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/55 "2020-11-10T18:28:05Z")
See the Esperanto example above for example. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/56 "2020-11-10T18:40:09Z")
One spitball solution thrown off by a random poster on a messageboard doesn’t represent any sort of thesis statement for “wokeness.” That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/57 "2020-11-10T18:42:16Z")
“Systematically racist” was a typo. I meant “systemic racism”, i.e. is it an example of systemic racism. My apologies for any confusion. English being the world’s dominant language in science (and other domains) isn’t intentional or done maliciously in general (a$$holes abound of course). It is just the way the system (of science) has developed as a result of human history. But that also doesn’t make it right or fair, and the right and fair thing to do is to try to address these things in a reasonable fashion (different people will disagree of course on what is reasonable). So being woke, if I were to describe it succinctly in an elevator pitch style, is simply that awareness to how culture, history, etc. influence us all and our society even in ways which may not be obvious or intentional, but are malign. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/58 "2020-11-10T18:51:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Can anyone tell me whether ‘Critical Race Theory’ and/or ‘Critical Social Justice’ are actual concepts being developed and taught by the “left” school of sociopolitical thought, or whether these are boogieman theories contrived and foisted on the left by the “right”.[/quote] > CRT is a real and perfectly legitimate school of thought in Law and the social sciences. Of course, it’s not Lindsay’s strawman version, but it does exist. > > [quote]To go deeper into this rabbit hole - are “Neo-Marxist” and “Post-Modernist” labels used by anyone other than the likes of Peterson, Lindsay, etc. ? Which legitimate school of philosophy actually applies these labels to current socio-political trends other than the aforementioned right leaning circle-jerks? Lots of people are neo-Marxists or postmodernists, it’s not some secret shame. They are both current trends of thought in the humanities - and I use “current” here _very_ loosely, they’ve been around since the 20s for neo-Marxism, and 40s for postmodernism. They are well-established and almost stuffily old-school. Turn over most modern Arts departments and you’ll see a host of postmodernists scuttle out into the light. They have plenty of modern adherents, and descendant schools (like CRT) and most academics wouldn’t even bother to label themselves postmodernists because that’s just part of the background. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/59 "2020-11-10T18:55:24Z")
You missed my point. I was answering the question of how it could be completely eliminated, not if we should. Today, there would be a huge cost to doing that. And even if we did go to a “language of science”, there would be downsides. It could reduce the accessibility of scientific research by the general public. The real point is that the barrier you feel to interacting with the scientific mainstream if all science had to be published in Esperanto is the same barrier all none English speakers now face. Sure one way to even the playing field would be to make everyone learn a new language to do science. But it is not the only way. Of course, pretending that an almost impossible method of addressing injustice is the only way is a good strategy to hang on to privilege without feeling guilty (see reparations, land reform, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/60 "2020-11-10T19:09:54Z")
There is nothing in equality that requires improving the condition of the disadvantaged. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/61 "2020-11-10T19:16:10Z")
I was watching a science lecture, and the presenter had somewhat broken English. Serviceable, but required a bit of work to understand. People will turn off that lecture, because he “sounds stupid” or “poorly educated”, because he doesn’t speak English fluently. OTOH, that presenter could speak at least one language more than most Americans. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/62 "2020-11-10T19:17:15Z")
If you choose to view it as a negative sum game, then you will play it as a negative sum game. That doesn’t actually mean that it is a negative sum game. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/63 "2020-11-10T19:17:39Z")
It reminds me of: [Cristiano Ronaldo sticks up for Japanese boy after he struggles to speak Portuguese | The Independent | The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news/cristiano-ronaldo-sticks-japanese-boy-after-he-struggles-speak-portuguese-10228030.html) ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/64 "2020-11-10T19:26:36Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Something like Esperanto that is nobody’s first language Under the current system, some people just get to use their first language while other people have to work harder to learn a second language. That’s not fair … so your solution is to make it equally bad for everyone? And never mind that the extra benefit learning English means you can speak the local language if you travel to English speaking countries. Instead you learn a second language that is the native language nowhere. But you’re right. It isn’t racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177.md?page=4)