# Is James Lindsay's description of Wokeness accurate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177 "2020-11-09T21:16:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/85 "2020-11-10T23:41:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > does that mean it’s a bad thing? Should we change it? Or can something be systemically racist but not actually bad? It’s “bad” in that it disproportionately impacts people who don’t speak English. But the solution is to improve translation quality and access so that people of all languages can collaborate on projects. That way English speaking scientists don’t miss out on ideas by a small Italian lab that only published in Italian journals, and those Italian scientists don’t lack access to everything the rest of the world comes up with ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/86 "2020-11-10T23:43:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But you don’t have a genie. I doubt anyone thinks the current situation is fair as such, but it’s not obvious that any change would be an improvement. Is anyone advocating change? I just see people advocating understanding of the issue when dealing with ESL scientists. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/87 "2020-11-10T23:45:25Z")
This. The only reason to be upset about anything the woke movement is saying is if you’re upset when you have to hear “press 1 for English” before you hear the rest of the automated messages on a phone system. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/88 "2020-11-10T23:52:12Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > But you don’t have a genie. I doubt anyone thinks the current situation is fair as such, but it’s not obvious that any change would be an improvement. > > Is anyone advocating change? I just see people advocating understanding of the issue when dealing with ESL scientists. What is it with so many on the conservative (for lack of a better word) side having such an issue with these thought experiments? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/89 "2020-11-11T00:06:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s “bad” in that it disproportionately impacts people who don’t speak English. But the solution is to improve translation quality and access so that people of all languages can collaborate on projects. That way English speaking scientists don’t miss out on ideas by a small Italian lab that only published in Italian journals, and those Italian scientists don’t lack access to everything the rest of the world comes up with That makes sense. And machine translation is pretty decent nowadays, so you’re not limited to reading only in your native language. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/90 "2020-11-11T00:23:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Here is a very interesting video I stumbled on that’s about ethnomathematics. Please let me know how “woke” it is. I posit that the videomaker’s use of ethnomathematics as an example of “wokeness” demonstrates his malicious intent. What a cool vid! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/91 "2020-11-11T00:26:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > That makes sense. And machine translation is pretty decent nowadays, so you’re not limited to reading only in your native language. Yes, twenty years from now if you can wear a pear of headphones or glasses to get live dubbing or closed captions that would be a great help towards equality. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/92 "2020-11-11T02:40:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > That makes sense. And machine translation is pretty decent nowadays, so you’re not limited to reading only in your native language. It’s probably not quite up to scientific papers. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/93 "2020-11-11T04:04:07Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > What is it with so many on the conservative (for lack of a better word) side having such an issue with these thought experiments? I think it has to do with conservatives believing that the system works as it’s supposed to and “wokeness” threatens the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/94 "2020-11-11T05:06:10Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Not because of the intent but because calling yourself woke is a big statement that is making a lot of claims. It implies that you are done, you did itl your journey is complete and no one should be questioning you. That’s not what being woke means, though. It doesn’t mean that you’ve _solved_ anything. It just means that you’re _aware of the problems_ and _aware of the causes of the problems_. In the way that people who, for example, say “I don’t see colour” or “what systemic racism?” or “equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome” are obviously not. And as we all know, knowing is only _half_ the battle. And the way easier half, at that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/95 "2020-11-11T05:11:31Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m curious about this. To the people saying the use of English as scientific lingua franca is systemic racism: does that mean it’s a bad thing? Should we change it? Or can something be systemically racist but not actually bad? I personally think it _is_ a bad thing. Monocultures are never a good idea. They are inherently more vulnerable. It’s not the worst part of the scientific establishment (that’d be the current journal structure) but it’s not great and can stand some change. Like I’ve said, it didn’t used to be like that. It wasn’t _that_ long ago that French and German were equally as important. Who says it can’t be Spanish and Mandarin in 50 years time? > [@DemonTree](#): > > Possibly because the group that currently benefits, ie ‘people who speak English’, isn’t a race? Lots of non-Whites benefit from White supremacy nowadays, too - doesn’t make it not racist. And it certainly was set up as a racist system. Just because English was imposed on a lot of Black, Brown and other people doesn’t wipe away the racism of the imposition. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/96 "2020-11-11T05:14:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s probably not quite up to scientific papers. That’s my thinking. And it doesn’t provide the benefit of forcing scientists themselves to actually work across languages. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/97 "2020-11-11T05:18:03Z")
The point is not to punish or reward anyone. It is to be the fish who notices the water. To take that into account and try to make society more equitable for all. If we are talking about language bias in science, it means think on how to correct that. My genie can’t do it in a snap of the fingers, but if I was the editor in chief of a science journal, I would probably consider hiring editors who speak English as a second language a priority. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/98 "2020-11-11T10:37:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think it has to do with conservatives believing that the system works as it’s supposed to and “wokeness” threatens the status quo. I’ll admit right now that I haven’t watched the video and don’t intend to (baby won’t allow it), but I’ve read some similar arguments and I think the main objections are: 1. Since everything is a product of society and society was/is racist, this methodology can be used to show that any damn thing is systemically racist. (With optional “they believe all of western civilisation is based on racism and their aim is to tear it down!!!”) 2. The fact that past racism contributed to the current situation doesn’t mean the situation is racist now. Eg in the language example, using English is a locally stable equilibrium, which will likely continue whether anyone is racist or not. The arguments for whether the current situation is unfair and whether and how it should be changed do not depend on systemic racism, so what is the motive for bringing it up? 3a. That the ‘woke’ proponents of this theory are not willing to listen to disagreement and engage in debate, they just accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being racist. Possibly they consider the concepts of debate and reason themselves to be systemically racist and therefore invalid. If policy is going to be based on an idea then it should be allowable to question it. 3b. Alternatively/additionally they believe only certain people as defined by their skin colour/gender/other attributes are allowed to express an opinion. 1. ‘Woke’ ideas are being adopted by businesses etc in diversity training and employees are forced to agree with them or risk losing their jobs. Outside the US, they may even be coded into laws to prevent anyone openly questioning them. I’d be greatful if anyone can show these are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/99 "2020-11-11T10:49:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Like I’ve said, it didn’t used to be like that. It wasn’t _that_ long ago that French and German were equally as important. Who says it can’t be Spanish and Mandarin in 50 years time? It’s likely that the globalisation of science and increase in number of scientists outside Europe actually contributed to the convergence on a single language. When the number of countries and languages involved was smaller due to the dominance of Europe, it was feasible to learn French and German and English in order to work, but now that scientists speaking 200 different languages need to communicate it’s much easier to settle on one. And if it does change in the future it’ll likely be to just one other language, due to the rise of a new superpower. I suspect the only way two languages could co-exist long term in this area is if the world was divided like during the cold war. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/100 "2020-11-11T11:00:41Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s likely that the globalisation of science and increase in number of scientists outside Europe actually contributed to the convergence on a single language. It wasn’t just happenstance. Active efforts took place in the USA during and after WWI to suppress the teaching and publishing of foreign languages, espcially German. With the increasing stature of the US in subsequent decades, this had a strong knock-on effect. I also think the demise of Latin contributed. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And if it does change in the future it’ll likely be to just one other language, due to the rise of a new superpower. Well, as long as everyone’s cool with doing science in Mandarin, that’s OK, then… ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/101 "2020-11-11T11:10:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It wasn’t just happenstance. Active efforts took place in the USA during and after WWI to suppress the teaching and publishing of foreign languages, espcially German. With the increasing stature of the US in subsequent decades, this had a strong knock-on effect. Really? Do you have a link to something describing those efforts? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, as long as everyone’s cool with doing science in Mandarin, that’s OK, then… I’d much prefer Spanish, since it’s far more similar to English, not to mention the huge benefit of alphabetic writing over logograms. But the properties of the language will be low on the list of reasons if we do see a change. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/102 "2020-11-11T11:14:57Z")
Scientific Babel: How Science Was Done Before and After Global English by Michael D. Gordin ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/103 "2020-11-11T11:43:56Z")
Thanks ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177/104 "2020-11-11T11:50:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It wasn’t just happenstance. Active efforts took place in the USA during and after WWI to suppress the teaching and publishing of foreign languages, espcially German. With the increasing stature of the US in subsequent decades, this had a strong knock-on effect. > > I also think the demise of Latin contributed. I remember sitting in on a meeting in a certain scientific department in the US, during which it was proposed, no idea how seriously, to weaken further the already tenuous requirement for graduates to understand French, German, and Russian, and replace some of that with mastering a computer language. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I’d much prefer Spanish, since it’s far more similar to English, not to mention the huge benefit of alphabetic writing over logograms. But the properties of the language will be low on the list of reasons if we do see a change. The obvious choice is Classical Chinese, the Latin of the Sinosphere. Not anybody’s native language, and it has the huge advantage of saving paper compared to English or Spanish or even Mandarin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-james-lindsays-description-of-wokeness-accurate/925177.md?page=6)