# Is JK Rowling transphobic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105 "2019-12-19T19:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/281 "2019-12-25T00:02:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I very much doubt that. And you’d be wrong. By the end of this post I’ll have already gone past the daily 7000 characters that is on pace for that … and it is early yet. And I am not the _most_ long winded or active poster around. > [@](#): > > … I asked you a few questions about the information posted in the link because I found the claims sketchy. Can you answer them? … I linked to to the source of those claims. If you have some expert to quote that disputes that article fine. > [@](#): > > You speak from a position of privilege. What Forstater says or does doesn’t affect you. She isn’t trying to redefine how the government or society legally view your identity. > > Is it an incitement to violence? Not directly. … Of course a feminist who feels that their identity is being appropriated can make the same claim on you. Still you opine freely … She is trying to be part of the active discussion, the “[public consultation](https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2019-09-24/290436/)”, regarding The Gender Recognition Act of 2004. My understanding is that currently getting a certificate recognizing a change in gender in the U.K. requires some evidence of significant gender dysphoria, of having lived as the desired gender for at least two years, and of intent to continue to do so. There is a push to remove those requirements, to make the process a simple administrative one of a person stating that there gender is [gender] and that statement having full legal status. She is part of a view that is against changing the law in that way, claiming that a “man” does not become “woman” simply by a statement. Yes, that view is informed by her view that one’s “sex” is a biological condition, and that the concept of “gender” is a tool used to oppress women, not a real thing. Odds are her view will lose in the public debate, and I believe it should. But I do not believe that those with that view should be prohibited from participating in the debate about where the law is going. > [@](#): > > … Businesses are allowed to not renew contracts with people. … In the U.K. not based on discrimination against various classes including those with “protected beliefs.” Hence the point of the case: they could discriminate against her for her belief because it was not of a protected nature. Discrimination against those with her beliefs is okay. > [@](#): > > It isn’t a hijack at all. … What does or does not drive away posters on this board is a huge hijack and I welcome you to bump the disputation ATMB thread if you want to go there. > [@](#): > > … I’d fire them. No question. It wouldn’t be safe to have that person working at my workplace. I have a duty of care to all of my employees and this employee is clearly unsafe. The gender identity of my staff members are not up for debate. You believe that an employee who believes those things without sharing those thoughts or acting on those thoughts in the workplace, but expressing them outside of work, makes other employees unsafe and would fire anyone who expresses those positions outside of work. I assume you’d also fire those who you see as having other hateful beliefs, be it what you consider to be misogyny, bigotry, religious intolerance, and so on. You _might_ have a hard time staffing your factory in much of America. I speak as an employer … my employees need to behave according to appropriate rules of conduct at work and are of course prohibited from creating a hostile work environment for anyone. Their views expressed outside of work are their business not mine nor the business of other employees. They can, by my belief system, be completely immoral outside of work; policing their beliefs is not my job. Doubling back to your The Judgment quote. So Forstater says the use of “he” in reference to Murray was a mistake, as others have made here - does not claim that she would ever intentionally misgender, that she might use the requested gender out of courtesy, but she objects to legal mandate to say something that she does not believe is true. As far as that goes I think it is very fair to state that she cannot do that in a work environment as that would create a hostile environment. And that others in charge of their private spaces are free to forbid her from speaking like that. But dang, making good manners legally enforceable? Criminalizing being an asshole? I am no free speech absolutist but that does cross my line. As a Jew I would be very upset over someone talking about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as if they were a real thing, but I would not outlaw speech that claims them. > [@Taber](#): > > So, some transphobic people blocked a transgender pride float at a pride parade, and Gregor Murray called the protesters a misogynistic slur, and so now people in the thread are saying it’s ok to misgender Gregor because they are a misogynist? … Simple answer to that question: **no**. No one has taken that position. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/282 "2019-12-25T00:08:09Z")
Sorry to just post and run and not read the replies, but it’s Christmas Eve and I’m not in the mood. However, I think I forgot to post a link to this video might help people understand this topic. It’s by a genderfluid geek who is a huge, huge fan of Rowling’s work. He explains really well why Rowling’s post was transphobic. I know the thread has mostly moved on beyond that, but it’s too good a video not to share. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/qwLc0UQF-pk/maxresdefault.jpg "Was JK Rowling Transphobic back in 2019? Yes... and I'll Explain How") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwLc0UQF-pk) Oh, and Merry Christmas, everyone who celebrates. If not, uh, have a Wonderful Wednesday??? ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/283 "2019-12-25T00:25:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > And to give context to this, [Gregor Murray](https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/woman-who-received-abuse-from-dundee-councillor-gregor-murray-speaks-out/) is a Scottish politician who was revealed to have directed vile, misogynistic abuse at women, repeatedly. Murray’s behavior was so extreme that it lead to a formal government investigation forcing “they” (aka. Murray) to step down from “their” position and leave the party. So basically we’re being told that Forstater is a bad person because she won’t bend over backwards to be polite to a woman-hating lout, and then that Rowling is a bad person because she defends Forstater. > > I try to be polite to everyone but in a situation where a dictionary-definition male like Murray verbally attacks dictionary-definition women, my sympathies are limited, and I also find it remarkable how many so-called feminists and progressives side with the abusive male in cases like this. No one? ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/284 "2019-12-25T00:34:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Let’s start with Gregor Murray. This is a biological male who chooses to present stereotypically male, (classic man’s suit tie beard) who is known to call women “cunts” and “bitches” in disagreements, who at has chosen to claim identify as non-binary and who claims great hurt at being referred to as a “he”. Now maybe this is a very sincere asshole, but I could certainly understand some concluding that Murray is trying to edgelord or troll, trying to create circumstances in which to claim offense and get attention. A poster child for trans-sexual issues? Not. Again at best an ass. I strongly support transperson rights but yeah you lose me at biological male, male presenting, trans-non-binary misogynist asshole. > > IF one was pretty convinced that this person is edgelording, and one feels that person is being an ass to you and yours, is disrespecting your and yours, is giving that person respect in return required? Minimally I would not consider referring to someone you consider to be an edgelording asshole and hateful to you and yours as “he” in the same boat as referring to a longtime trans-man or woman who is trying to be accepted as such the best they can by an unwelcome pronoun. There is some nuance between this position, and the one you claim no one holds, but I’m not sure calling Gregor a faker is that much different than misgendering them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/285 "2019-12-25T00:51:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > First of all you do understand that the people you call "TERF"s find that term to be a term of offense and derision. Noted that one gives respect when one expects respect to be given … and that few of the characters in this kerfuffle seem willing to give much while expect much in return. Least disrespectful to my read has been Rowling. “TERF is a slur !” is an Orwellian tactic used by TERFs to silence their critics. They espouse a set of views, the acronym describes that set of views, and none of the words that make up the acronym is insulting either. If they don’t like to be labelled for their views, they can, I dunno, change views ? What should we call them ? > [@](#): > > A commitment to posting a fair amount in that one week about something that was an important issue to her. People do that. 25 Tweets a day for a week, each one 280 characters, generally not things spend much time on, really doesn’t seem crazed. Whereas I’d call it fucking obsessive. It’s not about the length of message, it’s about doing it over and over and over, without a break. > [@](#): > > Is the holding the belief that “biological sex is real” and being minimally skeptical of gender as a similarly “real” thing, as opposed to a construct society imposes, necessarily a hateful belief? (Note, the question is not if you agree with the statement.) Yes. It’s not like she’s holding those views _ab nihilo_, or exists _in nihilo_ and outside a huge, nasty trend in the UK. It’s about denying trans people (and trans women specifically) a space, \*any \*space, to exist in. It’s harmful, nasty, and bloody rude too. > [@](#): > > Should the only criteria for gender identity be the unilateral statement of belief by the individual that all must accept else be labelled a bigoted transphobe? Yes ? > [@](#): > > Can people hold even bigoted beliefs and still treat people with respect and dignity and support policies that do the same as the right thing to do even if they disagree with the stated justification of it? (In terms of impact on the person getting the scholarship does it matter what the motivations of the donor were?) Can angels, in fact, dance on the head of a pin ? She wasn’t doing that, so why discuss it, except trying to drown the fish (to coin a barbarism) ? > [@](#): > > Should a person be fired for having beliefs that you disagree with that they express outside of the work environment. She wasn’t fired ; and considering her work puts her in contact with the public at large (not to mention colleagues) who she has outright stated she would go out of her way to be an arse to, then I don’t see any problem with her employers not reconducting her contract once she made it clear that she was going to be a PR nightmare at the very least, and deliberately so. I’m also given to understand her employers asked her to tone it down and she refused. Can you do that and \*not \*get fired, you think ? Regardless of what “it” is you’re being required to stop doing by management/HR ? See: gay wedding cakes, marriage licences. She is not entitled to a job, or that job specifically, is she ? She was looking for martyrdom. Let her have it. Or, you know what, [listen to her](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwivu6CayM_mAhWBh1wKHTPrCPsQwqsBMAB6BAgKEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DacxbTCAN30U&usg=AOvVaw3ZHcXNcrIbSnqYJXlPbhHS). She speaks about the subject with more eloquence and passion than I, having a horse in the race. ---
**Author:** ![Calavera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calavera/32/70_2.png) [@Calavera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calavera)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/286 "2019-12-25T01:33:47Z")
How many people is Gregor Murray? If the answer is 1 then the only valid 3rd party pronouns are him, her or it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/287 "2019-12-25T01:39:21Z")
**Taber** , indeed I do not read “sympathies are limited” as equal to “saying it’s ok” … and I do not think that any hypothetical apparent edgelord gets an automatic no questions asked or allowed to be asked pass on anyone reading them as one by virtue of edgelording with gender identity. Please note the capitalized IF in your quoted post. Personally I believe in presuming good faith unless \*overwhelming evidence \*to the contrary; quacking like a duck is not enough. Something that many here do not agree with having as a default state. **Kobal2** the irony runs deep. I completely endorse that someone should be able to state what is insulting to them and have it respected out of basic good manners and human decency. If a biological male who presents in a sterotypically male manner wants to be called “they” or “she”, and hears “he” as an insult, the default should be to respect that. If a gender skeptical feminist hears the term “TERF” as an insulting misrepresention of their position, then such should be respected as well. One gives the respect one hopes to get, again something that few in this kerfuffle or this thread seem to live by. Disrespect others and be not surprised when they respond in kind. Not something that is “okay” for them to do, but something that is unsurprising to occur and when it does occur, yes “my sympathies are limited.” See gay wedding cakes? That is on the job. This is more like saying that the baker is not allowed to bake if they have homophobic beliefs. (I don’t tweet but pretty sure I could pop out 25 of them in less than an hour, hell less than 30 minutes. Tweets are not usually the most deeply thought out things: “Love this!”; “Gender is real and a person’s statement on it at any point in time is enough.”; “Scholarships based a mission to increase women in STEM fields should not be given to someone who has only decided they are a woman the week before applying for the scholarship and lived their whole live before being treated as male.” There’s three in less than a minute.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/288 "2019-12-25T01:40:40Z")
Now **Calavera** ’s post is an example of something rude and hateful beyond any reasonable doubt. Some are. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/289 "2019-12-25T01:50:23Z")
> [@Calavera](#): > > How many people is Gregor Murray? If the answer is 1 then the only valid 3rd party pronouns are him, her or it. Might want to look into the singular _they_, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/290 "2019-12-25T01:51:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Kobal2** the irony runs deep. I completely endorse that someone should be able to state what is insulting to them and have it respected out of basic good manners and human decency. If a biological male who presents in a sterotypically male manner wants to be called “they” or “she”, and hears “he” as an insult, the default should be to respect that. If a gender skeptical feminist hears the term “TERF” as an insulting misrepresention of their position, then such should be respected as well. One gives the respect one hopes to get, again something that few in this kerfuffle or this thread seem to live by. Disrespect others and be not surprised when they respond in kind. Not something that is “okay” for them to do, but something that is unsurprising to occur and when it does occur, yes “my sympathies are limited.” YoU MuSt ToLeRaTe My InToLeRaNcE ! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/291 "2019-12-25T01:56:09Z")
(also you didn’t answer my question : what should we call the people who hold those views, if the descriptive term is taboo ?) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/292 "2019-12-25T02:06:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > YoU MuSt ToLeRaTe My InToLeRaNcE ! :dubious: No I do not have to tolerate your intolerance. I can point out your hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/293 "2019-12-25T02:08:43Z")
They seem to use the term “gender critical feminists” and key in in their critique of the concept of gender as a tool of oppression as what they are about, not exclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/294 "2019-12-25T02:46:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > They seem to use the term “gender critical feminists” and key in in their critique of the concept of gender as a tool of oppression as what they are about, not exclusion. “Gender Critical” is basically the “race realist” of trans discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/295 "2019-12-25T02:51:33Z")
No “basically” about it. It’s a 1:1 parallel. Same exact tactic for the same exact reason : turns out people don’t really like racists. Or TERFs. I know, it’s weird. So rebranding time, and don’t forget to point out who the \*real \*racists are ! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/296 "2019-12-25T02:52:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No I do not have to tolerate your intolerance. I can point out your hypocrisy. That’s not… I don’t… ah, forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/297 "2019-12-25T03:11:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Ah yes, the old “anyone who disagrees with me is causing violence” nonsense, in the absence, of course, of evidence of either a rise in hate crime or, for that matter, evidence crime against transgender people is due to women saying things like “I don’t think people with dicks should be in my change room.” …ah yes, the old “anyone who disagrees with me is causing violence” strawman. My argument isn’t based on mere disagreement and that should be obvious to anyone who has read any of my posts I’ve made since I first started posting here in 2002. I disagree with people all the time. To claim that just because I disagree with a position I’m claiming they are causing violence is both disingenuous and incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/298 "2019-12-25T03:32:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > They seem to use the term “gender critical feminists” Yeah, I find “self-described gender critical feminists” to be an adequate all-purpose descriptor. I also use “self-described race realists” and “self-described pro-life advocates” to convey similar intentions of “I get that this is your preferred ideological category but I don’t really agree with you about its meaning”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/299 "2019-12-25T03:47:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I find “self-described gender critical feminists” to be an adequate all-purpose descriptor. > > I also use “self-described race realists” and “self-described pro-life advocates” to convey similar intentions of “I get that this is your preferred ideological category but I don’t really agree with you about its meaning”. I’m just going to leave [that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSp8IyaKCs0) there. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/300 "2019-12-25T03:57:59Z")
I’m okay with that. Avoiding disrespect and insult is one thing but you shouldn’t have to implicitly endorse a description that you do not believe. Would you be okay with Forstater referring to Murray as “self-described they” in the same spirit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105.md?page=16)