# Is JK Rowling transphobic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105 "2019-12-19T19:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/361 "2019-12-28T09:45:24Z")
Nope. I give up. You have no interest in debating at all. I talk about the impact of pregnancy when it comes to sports and you accuse me of being “creepy” and talk about the “constant policing of women’s bodies,” completely ignoring what I said. Do you acknowledge that pregnancy and periods make a difference in sports? I kinda thought that should be something everyone would agree on, TBH - I put it out there as something we all know has an effect, though many men don’t understand how much. But no. I’m creepy and trying to control women. And then you do your usual quotemaggedon thing. You just want to hear your own voice. Hope the echo is tuneful. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/362 "2019-12-28T10:06:38Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Nope. I give up. You have no interest in debating at all. …BYE! > [@](#): > > I talk about the impact of pregnancy when it comes to sports and you accuse me of being “creepy” and talk about the “constant policing of women’s bodies,” completely ignoring what I said. This is what you said on the matter: > [@SciFiSam](#): > > When it comes to long term or professional sports, transwomen do not have to deal with monthly menstruation and the problems that causes many women; bleeding and feeling pain for several days a month really shouldn’t be disregarded as a factor in performance - I mean, if a male competitor in a sport had a condition that made him bleed and feel pain for seven days a month he’d probably be considered disabled. And they will never have to take time out of their sporting events due to pregnancy. > > An unplanned pregnancy for a 21-year-old male rugby player whose partner is pregnant means he might try to arrange games so that he can be with his partner for the birth. For a female rugby player, it means a year or so not playing because the sport is so high-contact. Kelly Morgan is in her thirties and will be competing against women who are in the age range where they have to choose between competing and pregnancy, something she will never have to face as a prospect. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > I assume we’re still talking medical issues, since I was talking about bleeding for several days a month. Transwomen have to deal with hormones that makes them… Like women, except for periods. > > … > > Not every female rugby player is going to get pregnant, but it’s not exactly rare, and a hell of lot more female rugby players get pregnant than male rugby players do. We were talking about a team where most of the women are in their late twenties to early thirties, the key time for women to try to get pregnant. Yeah, some of the women will choose not to get pregnant or try for it - there’s never a completely level playing ground - but this is different. > > I’d say that no male rugby player has ever had to take a year out for pregnancy. I’d also say that none have ever had to sit out for a month or two due to a miscarriage or abortion due to abdominal surgery. And they won’t have to deal with period pains, or spend their teens - the main time athletes start their careers - with a pad and tampon in their athletic wear and worry about bleeding through while being watched by everyone they know. > > Kelly, who, like I said, does seem like a really lovely person, could have biological children into her fifties and beyond and won’t have to carry them. Maybe she would love to be the one who was pregnant, but her biology doesn’t allow that. If she had an unwise relationship in her early career and got her GF who was also a rugby player pregnant, she (Kelly) could have carried on playing, but the GF would have had to stop playing for a couple of weeks even if she had an abortion as early as possible, due to the blood loss. You could have just said that transgender women don’t have to deal with pregnancy nor periods. But you went well beyond that. I’ll let your posts speak for themselves. > [@](#): > > Do you acknowledge that pregnancy and periods make a difference in sports? I kinda thought that should be something everyone would agree on, TBH - I put it out there as something we all know has an effect, though many men don’t understand how much. I think you are the third person in this thread to say “I kinda thought that should be something everyone would agree on”, which kinda misses the point. > [@](#): > > But no. I’m creepy and trying to control women. I don’t think you are creepy. But those posts I quoted? I think they were creepy. > [@](#): > > You just want to hear your own voice. Hope the echo is tuneful. Do you know whose voices I would much rather hear than my own? The voices of transgender people. I miss Una. I miss her passion, her dedication to fighting ignorance. I hardly ever spoke to her while she was here and I wish that I did. I wish that I had been more vocal on this issue years ago. I can see why they don’t want to be here. And if you think debating with me is a frustrating experience imagine how frustrating and infuriating it would be for them to try and debate their very existence with people who really just didn’t care. I don’t want to be here. This isn’t about me. I’ve said I’m not an expert. In real life I muddle through these issues doing the best that I can. Imagine what an echo chamber this thread would be if people didn’t decide to argue with me. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/363 "2019-12-28T11:00:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …BYE! > > This is what you said on the matter: > > You could have just said that transgender women don’t have to deal with pregnancy nor periods. But you went well beyond that. I’ll let your posts speak for themselves. > > I think you are the third person in this thread to say “I kinda thought that should be something everyone would agree on”, which kinda misses the point. > > I don’t think you are creepy. But those posts I quoted? I think they were creepy. > > Do you know whose voices I would much rather hear than my own? > > The voices of transgender people. > > I miss Una. I miss her passion, her dedication to fighting ignorance. I hardly ever spoke to her while she was here and I wish that I did. I wish that I had been more vocal on this issue years ago. I can see why they don’t want to be here. And if you think debating with me is a frustrating experience imagine how frustrating and infuriating it would be for them to try and debate their very existence with people who really just didn’t care. > > I don’t want to be here. This isn’t about me. I’ve said I’m not an expert. In real life I muddle through these issues doing the best that I can. Imagine what an echo chamber this thread would be if people didn’t decide to argue with me. I don’t think most people would agree that the posts you quoted were creepy. I don’t think Una would call them creepy. I was talking about how pregnancy and periods can affect performance in sports, and I didn’t go into detail about anything to do with periods or pregnancy. Please report me if you think I’m “creepy” because that’s a reportable level of behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/364 "2019-12-28T14:04:19Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Nope. I give up. You have no interest in debating at all. I talk about the impact of pregnancy when it comes to sports and you accuse me of being “creepy” and talk about the “constant policing of women’s bodies,” completely ignoring what I said. Do you acknowledge that pregnancy and periods make a difference in sports? I kinda thought that should be something everyone would agree on, TBH - I put it out there as something we all know has an effect, though many men don’t understand how much. But no. I’m creepy and trying to control women. It looks like male privilege manifested through trans advocacy. Because their reality is different than ours, men can shrug off biology as no big deal. Or sit back and smugly demand for the obvious to be cited. Sex characteristics don’t make them weaker or vulnerable, and biology doesn’t mark them as a target for predation. Biological female women can’t “identify out” of this reality, and this is why biology matters. Shrugging this of is impossible for us. You’d think we could get even a nominal “yeah, I see what you’re saying. Testosterone does give an edge that can’t be swept under the rug.” But nope. Much easier to be dismissive than acknowledge that sexual dimorphism exists and that identifying as a certain gender doesn’t magically erase that dimorphism. I appreciate you speaking up. This is not the time for trans-supportive women to be shamed into be silence out of fear of being call transphobic. Discussions like this are useful before it’s shining light on beliefs and attitudes that might otherwise have flown under the radar or given the benefit of the doubt. The blog that **monstro** cited was an informative take on trans women in sports. It’s a good read for anyone who questions whether this a valid issue to be concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/365 "2019-12-28T14:37:47Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t think most people would agree that the posts you quoted were creepy. Not in the slightest. But I’m not surprised to see the biological experiences of women called “creepy”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/366 "2019-12-28T14:41:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Emotional appeals like this are ineffective against African American women. _Seriously_? What a joke of a comeback. **BB** shows\*\* with facts \*_that trans people are dying, and you call it an_ [appeal to emotion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion)\*? Learn your damn logical fallacies before you try to play one along with a piss-poor use of a race-gender card combo. What an argument fail. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/367 "2019-12-28T14:50:18Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t think most people would agree that the posts you quoted were creepy. I don’t think Una would call them creepy. I was talking about how pregnancy and periods can affect performance in sports, and I didn’t go into detail about anything to do with periods or pregnancy. > > Please report me if you think I’m “creepy” because that’s a reportable level of behaviour. Apparently it is verboten for us to even talk about the fundamental differences in biology between cis and transwomen because doing so is inherently creepy (creepy to who? The same demographic that always goes “ew gross!” whenever ciswomen discuss their body functions in front of them? HOW FUCKING SURPRISING THAT IS!) I can endure some mansplaining, but some dude downplaying the importance of periods and pregnancy by calling these things “creepy”, even though they are signature experiences in most woman’s lives, is just too fucking much. Your post reminded me of this excellent [Always](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=yIxA3o84syY&feature=emb_logo) commercial. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/368 "2019-12-28T14:54:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Seriously_? > > What a joke of a comeback. **BB** shows\*\* with facts \*_that trans people are dying, and you call it an_ [appeal to emotion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion)\*? Women are dying. Black people are dying. Children are dying. Transgendered people are dying. What does dying have to do what the logic in dismissing biology? It’s an attempt to distract and derail using emotional manipulation. No one doubts that transgendered people are suffering. He’s answering a question that no one is asking. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/369 "2019-12-28T15:03:38Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Women are dying. Black people are dying. Children are dying. Transgendered people are dying. Do you agree that rates of death from causes like suicide and murder are more significant than actual numbers? Do you agree that suicide and murder kill far more trans people, proportionately, than they kill cis women, cis black people, and cis children? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/370 "2019-12-28T15:11:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Seriously_? > > What a joke of a comeback. **BB** shows\*\* with facts \*_that trans people are dying, and you call it an_ [appeal to emotion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion)\*? > > Learn your damn logical fallacies before you try to play one along with a piss-poor use of a race-gender card combo. What an argument fail. “Red herring” is a logical fallacy. It is used to describe an irrelevant, often provocative piece of information that is thrown out to divert a discussion from the original question. An appeal to emotion is a kind of a red herring fallacy. I would consider “THEY ARE DYING!!” to be an appeal to emotion. Yes, transwomen have a higher risk of being killed than ciswomen. But this fact is not relevant to a discussion focused on whether they interchangeable with ciswomen in terms of biology, socialization, and experience. The transwomen death rate is completely irrelevant to whether the differences between cis and transwomen are as negligible as **Banquet Bear** seems to think they are. It’s obvious to me he keeps throwing out “THEY ARE DYING!!” to steer the conversation to something that no one here would dare argue against. That is some bullshit, and **you with the face** is right to call him out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/371 "2019-12-28T15:15:17Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He’s answering a question that no one is asking. I’m sorry, have your forgotten the question: “Transgender activists are fighting for what?” **Banquet Bear** ’s answer is to that question \*you \*asked- they are fighting to stay alive. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/372 "2019-12-28T15:18:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “Red herring” is a logical fallacy. It is used to describe an irrelevant, often provocative piece of information that is thrown out to divert a discussion from the original question. An appeal to emotion is a kind of a red herring fallacy. I would consider “THEY ARE DYING!!” to be an appeal to emotion. If that was \*all \*\*\*BB \*\*wrote, you’d be right. [Appeal to emotion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion) or argumentum ad passiones (“argument from passion”) is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient’s emotions in order to win an argument,\*\* especially in the absence of factual evidence\*\* It wasn’t, and you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/373 "2019-12-28T15:21:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you agree that rates of death from causes like suicide and murder are more significant than actual numbers? Do you agree that suicide and murder kill far more trans people, proportionately, than they kill cis women, cis black people, and cis children? But how is this relevant to the conversation? The demographic with one of the highest suicide rate in the country right now is white men over the age of 65. If we were debating whether white men have a different set of life experiences than Southeast Asian women do in terms of socialization, opportunities, and outlook, would you see the relevance of someone bringing up the former’s higher suicide rate? Because it would be hard for me to not see that as an attempt to be intentionally provocative so that the reasonable question being posed never gets addressed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/374 "2019-12-28T15:25:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If that was \*all \*\*\*BB \*\*wrote, you’d be right. > > [Appeal to emotion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion) or argumentum ad passiones (“argument from passion”) is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient’s emotions in order to win an argument,\*\* especially in the absence of factual evidence\*\* > > It wasn’t, and you’re wrong. BUT IT IS IRRELEVANT INFORMATION. Red herrings don’t have to be incorrect or unsubstantiated to get that label. They just have to be irrelevant to the question being posed. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/375 "2019-12-28T15:39:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you agree that rates of death from causes like suicide and murder are more significant than actual numbers? Do you agree that suicide and murder kill far more trans people, proportionately, than they kill cis women, cis black people, and cis children? I agree that transgendered people are dying at alarming rates. Whether those rates exceed other groups, I can’t say without the stats in front of me, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are higher. Still not seeing how this information follows from the question I posed. Here, let me post it again. > [@Ywtf](#): > > Transgender activists are fighting for what? For people to disregard biological sex altogether? Really? I thought they were fighting for trans folk to have rights under the law. \*\*To be able to live as their identified gender in peace. \*\*If their goal is to completely overwrite how human beings categorize each other, then they’ve overplayed their hand. Without biological sex we don’t have reproduction. See the sentence in bold? “Living in peace” includes not being murdered and suicidal. This is what I’ve long assumed would be of chief concern to trans activists. What I haven’t assumed would be their concern is negating biological differences between males and females and shaming people for having the temerity to perceive gender using phenotypic cues of sex chromosomes. But reading \*\* Banquet’s\*\* posts would make one think otherwise. If he’s not speaking as a transgendered person himself, I wish he’d stop because he’s not helping them at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/376 "2019-12-28T15:47:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > BUT IT IS IRRELEVANT INFORMATION. Not in answer to the question that was asked. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/377 "2019-12-28T16:11:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not in answer to the question that was asked. If you aren’t speaking as transgendered person, you are not helping them either. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/378 "2019-12-28T16:19:17Z")
So…I’m confused. Are people arguing that John/Jane Doe should be treated as the gender they identify as, regardless of how they present? Or that they _literally are_ the gender they identify as, regardless of how they present? Or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/379 "2019-12-28T16:24:39Z")
I confess that BB’s style of posting is unreadable for me. I scroll past any post that’s snip-and-respond. In that respect I may have lost the thread of conversation. The bit I quoted from ywtf seemed to be dismissing the **fact** , not merely the **relevance** , that trans folks are dying from suicide/murder at far greater rates than cis folks are. If that wasn’t the intention, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/380 "2019-12-28T17:23:19Z")
As far as I can tell, they were talking about transwomen in sports and what “activists are really fighting for” and Banquet Bear thought suicide statistics were what he should bring up. That was kinda out of the blue, imho. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105.md?page=20)