# Is JK Rowling transphobic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105 "2019-12-19T19:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/81 "2019-12-20T15:45:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I know I said I was going to bow out but I am a liar. Maybe I am some kind of isolated sex/gender idiot. I am an idiot about lots of things. So perhaps I should just say that sex and gender are complicated for me and me alone. > > But please don’t intimate that I am arguing in bad faith or that I am in support of people who do. That suggestion pisses me off. > > Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk This stuff is really complicated. I personally think that a lot of what’s going on is that second-wave feminists and trans activists see a lot of the same gender-related injustices in the world, but have different models for how to make the world a fairer place, and their models are in some ways mutually exclusive–even though their ultimate goals are the same. This stuff is really complicated. I fuck up too, as I embarrassingly did this morning. But I figure that for me–a cismale who doesn’t care about gender and who could probably wake up tomorrow as a woman and have no identity crisis–I have a lot more to learn from listening than I do from opining. I try to limit my participation in threads like this to disputing badly-formed arguments and ill-provided cites, rather than venture forth in a gender theory discussion that’s not a life-or-death issue to me. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/82 "2019-12-20T16:04:55Z")
I just read the rest of the opinion and now better understand the significance of the phrase _ **“it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society”** _. > [@](#): > > To qualify as a “philosophical belief” under section 10 EqA, the belief must satisfy the five criteria in Grainger plc v Nicholson [2010] ICR 360, para 24 (“the Granger Criteria”): > > (i) the belief must be genuinely held; > (ii) it must be a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available; > (iii) it must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour > (iv) it must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance; and > (v) it must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others. My understanding: Forstater’s claim would have been upheld if the judge had held that her belief was _ **philosophical** _. Now that I understand it better, I find his opinion even more chilling. This framework allows a judge to declare that 1) a belief is not worthy of respect and 2) you can be fired for having it whether you act on that belief or not. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/83 "2019-12-20T16:07:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I don’t want to suggest that you specifically are lying or arguing in bad faith. I am pointing out although maybe gender concepts are not intuitive, they’re not hard to understand if you put in minimal effort. Folks are trying to help demonstrate that it’s not that confusing, and you seem determined to insist that you’re going to be confused no matter what. I think that is a very unfair assessment of me. I think my posting history shows that I really do try to understand the discourse and push against my programming. Just because I am not afraid to express my discomfort and confusion about certain parts of the discourse doesn’t mean I am intentionally trying to be confused. Nothing I have posted here supports your characterization of me. > [@](#): > > Maybe you’re not making that argument in bad-faith, but it’s a bad-faith argument used by others in the past to condemn things like interracial marriage and desegregation and civil rights and all kinds of other things. “Oh, things are all moving so fast, it’s too much for my poor elderly head, can’t they just give me more time to acclimate to thse newfangled ideas?” Black people fought for the right to live as first class citizens. They did not fight for the right to be able to define themselves racially however they see fit. If civil rights leadership had made that their platform then I would not blame white folks for being hella confused. Transgendered folks have made great strides in securing rights for themselves, and I am glad for it. But I don’t think anyone has the right to be free from negative criticism about how they use those rights. I am concerned that the discourse has become so charged that the any negative judgment is now taboo. If a person doesn’t buy that gender is 100% self-identification, then that means they will be lumped in with obstinate transphobes rather than viewed as someone who just hasn’t been sold on the concept but is amenable to changing their mind. I don’t like this. > [@](#): > > Again I’m not saying you personally are consciously making that pitch or have any conscious bad intent, but you should be aware that others do it and it sounds pretty much the same. I am trying to figure how people can talk about this without being accused of transphobia. Telling me I shouldn’t say I am confused about the topic because it makes me sound like a transphobe makes me feel like there is no point in trying anymore. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/84 "2019-12-20T16:08:53Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I have no idea. There’s not enough information in her tweet to determine this. From the rest of her tweet, she seems to be quite supportive of everyone’s right to live their life as they choose. I am too. I don’t see it. Her whole tweet would seem to show that Rowling has some very deep misunderstandings about gender dysphoria. > [@Rowling](#): > > Dress however you please. > Call yourself whatever you like. > Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. It’s not nearly so simple as men wearing dresses, calling themselves _she_, and sleeping with other guys. I hope either that that’s not what she meant or that it’s something that education can fix. Her tweet had one good line: > [@Rowling](#): > > Live your best life in peace and security. which is undercut by the very person she’s defending, who wants neither peace nor security for transpeople (transwomen, at least). ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/85 "2019-12-20T16:11:15Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > (“the Granger Criteria”) Hermione would be pleased. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/86 "2019-12-20T16:50:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because it’s what you said. You said “But if a person doesn’t present as a ‘female’ in any apparent way, is it wrong to say they aren’t female?” > > There is no objective standard for “doesn’t present as a ‘female’ in any way,” there is no objective standard for femininity. It is thus you deciding that someone is insufficiently female. That’s the only thing it can possibly mean. > > The race comparison is bad (and one I deliberately didn’t make) because there is at least some way to determine race. You can look at the race of one’s parents. You can look at the actual color of one’s skin. There are criteria other than “this person thinks they are black.” > > But, when it comes to gender identity, the only way to avoid misgendering any actual trans person is to take them at their word, even if, by our standards, they don’t seem sufficiently male or female to qualify. > > As for understanding gender: here is what I believe and have tried to explain before: \ > > The problem is that the word has two different but interrelated meanings. You have to accept that external gender (defined by roles and traits) and internal gender (aka gender self-identification, what you feel you are) are two different things. Trying to come up with a meaning that lumps the two together is what creates most of the confusion. > > If you conceive of it that way, you can more easily see why there is no contradiction with your masculine trans woman. She internally identify as female, yet outwardly choose not to alter herself to appear any more feminine. > > Finally, of course the understanding gender keeps changing. We’re still making discoveries. Science also changes, but we don’t just give up on understanding that. > > Fortunately, what you actually need to know is fairly simple. (1) Identify what pronouns you are okay with (2) treat others as the gender identity they claim to be (3) treat all genders (defined externally or internally) as equal. My understanding of the problem some people had with Racheal Doleazal and the concept of transrace is that to them being black has good and bad things associated with it. The bad is getting followed and around in shops, getting shot by cops, Madea movies, etc. The good is the tight knit community that being oppressed for so long engendered amongst other things. By growing up white and then transitioning to black Doleazal got to have white privilege and then got to have black privilege and she can go back to having white privilege whenever she wants. I imagine advocates of Affirmative Action would have a huge problem with a white kid identifying as a black kid when filling out college applications and then going back to identifying as white upon college graduation. One of the people the women in question criticized on Twitter was a gender fluid person who won an award designated for women in her industry. Being a feminist Mara thought this was unfair because the gender fluid person got to have all the advantages of being a man and then got something that was supposed to go to a woman. If you agree with Mara that women are a persecuted minority it seems unfair that the gender fluid person gets to win awards for women and then can take off a wig and go back to being a man whenever he wants. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/87 "2019-12-20T16:51:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t see any point where she argued that the difference between sex and gender confused her. She is only talking about gender. Both of them confuse me, but gender confuses me a lot more. Like, when I call a person a “man” or “woman”, I am not just thinking about their clothing or perceived masculinity/femininity. If I am honest, I gotta admit that I also think about how they present biologically. A butch woman is still a woman to me even though she dresses and acts in a masculine manner. I don’t think to myself, “I wonder if she is a man.” If she were to ask me to use masculine pronouns, I would out of respect. But in my mind, he would still be “woman” to me. And I don’t think I would be able to get that concept out of my mind. Now maybe I am wrong about this, and I just have to try harder to push back against my caveman programming. But it frustrates me that just talking about how hard it is to do this is treated as evidence of transphobia. Why can’t it just be an acknowlegement that gender is more complicated than “men are people who think they are men, women are people who think they are women”. > [@](#): > > I think the issue may be that you seem to have esoteric meanings for those words. I don’t know anyone who uses “male” exclusively for the sex. That’s why the term “biologically male” exists. Male by default refers to gender, as does female. And it can refer to either gender roles or gender identity (which I continue to insist are better conceptualized as two different things, albeit related). What do you think is the difference between sex and gender? If I change my name and style of dress so that I appear masculine and I tell people I am a female man, it seems to me I am using the correct nomenclature to pinpoint my sex and gender. ( **AHunter** gets credit for helping me see this.) My area of confusion: The “correctness” of identifying as a “male man” even if ones anatomy and mien strongly signal to others “female woman”. If we believe that “sex is real” (like JK does apparently), then it should be OK to object to the male label in this case…or at least probe deeper for an explanation. And thus, it seems to me it should also be OK to at least wonder why “man” makes sense as well. I am not talking about forbidding someone from identifying however they want to define themselves, legally or otherwise. I am just wondering if it is inherently icky to judge the meaning of and motives behind a given sex/gender label. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/88 "2019-12-20T17:00:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This stuff is really complicated. I personally think that a lot of what’s going on is that second-wave feminists and trans activists see a lot of the same gender-related injustices in the world, but have different models for how to make the world a fairer place, and their models are in some ways mutually exclusive–even though their ultimate goals are the same. > > This stuff is really complicated. I fuck up too, as I embarrassingly did this morning. > > But I figure that for me–a cismale who doesn’t care about gender and who could probably wake up tomorrow as a woman and have no identity crisis–I have a lot more to learn from listening than I do from opining. I try to limit my participation in threads like this to disputing badly-formed arguments and ill-provided cites, rather than venture forth in a gender theory discussion that’s not a life-or-death issue to me. Thanks for making me feel I am not the only one who is confused sometimes. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/89 "2019-12-20T17:42:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But I wasn’t talking about his “non-binary” identity! I was speaking hypothetically. If a biological male that had a beard and mustache like Gregor called himself a “woman”, I would probably have to keep my eyes from rolling. Do you have something to say to this point other than accusing me of playing a game? I’m actually curious if you can at least understand why a person would have this negative reaction. What the actual fuck? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/90 "2019-12-20T17:57:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What the actual fuck? Do you think I am a transphobe? Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/91 "2019-12-20T17:58:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do you think I am a transphobe? > > Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk I genuinely don’t know what to think about the stuff you’ve been posting here. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/92 "2019-12-20T18:00:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, here’s the thing; Gregor Murray IS a man, and he knows he’s a man. He’s a nasty, vindictive man who despises women, and he’s full of shit. Cite? > [@](#): > > I’m sure now people will wrongly call me a transphobe Seems to be the case. > [@](#): > > The notion that one must believe anything a person claims to be is preposterous; people lie. Another strawman. Nobody’s made that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/93 "2019-12-20T18:03:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > (generally speaking only women are called “TERFs” - women are disproportionately abused in this conversation) Generally speaking, only women _are_ TERFs. It’s not a philosophy that’s particularly welcoming to men. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/94 "2019-12-20T18:04:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I genuinely don’t know what to think about the stuff you’ve been posting here. OK. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/95 "2019-12-20T18:07:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do you understand why someone might have some unease about a conventionally masculine-presenting biological male calling himself a “woman”. Is this unease always a sign of transphobia? Or do you think it’s possible that someone could have reasonable concerns? Someone should chill the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/96 "2019-12-20T18:46:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Someone should chill the fuck out. Do you think gender has social importance? Because it seems to me that if it is socially important, people are naturally going to have positive and negative emotions about it (whether they want to or not) seeing as how people are social creatures. It seems contradictory to me to call gender a social construct but in the same breath tell people to not have negative reactions to a specific gender identity or label. I am chilled the fuck out as much as I can possibly be right now. Let’s make that clear. I am OK with the idea that gender isn’t socially important or at least shouldn’t be. I know personally I have never felt very “womanly”, so my gender identity doesn’t feel very important to me. But it is clear to me that gender is important to lots of people. I don’t think all of these people are transphobes or TERFs. It seems to me there has got to be a way for someone to talk about their confusion and struggle with gender classification and identity without being treated like a crazy or hateful person. In other words, how is saying “chill the fuck out” promoting understanding? I don’t think it does, but maybe that isn’t your intention. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/97 "2019-12-20T18:52:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh shit. I know this is gonna be a shock, but your representation of your cite sucks. > > Gregor Murray, according to that article, did two bad things: > > 1. He called someone a TERF (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist); and > 2. Used the “C-word” in a tweet. > > [It turns out that there’s more to the story](https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/685759/childrens-convener-issues-grovelling-climbdown-over-expletive-laden-twitter-outbursts/): a group of TERFs blocked an LGBTQ Pride parade because, well, because they’re TERFS. He responded by swearing at them on Twitter, and then apologized for having done so. “Repeatedly” means “in two Tweets about the same people in the same event.” Thanks for doing the digging on this. I suspected as much, but did not feel like doing the research. > [@Miller](#): > > Generally speaking, only women _are_ TERFs. It’s not a philosophy that’s particularly welcoming to men. I think people are confusing TERF’s with feminists in general. Most feminists–especially those under 40–are not TERF’s. There’s more to being a TERF than transphobia. There’s a sex-negative tendency, for one thing. Also a dislike of sex-workers and a dislike of men in general, including gay men. It’s astonishing how much their POV dovetails with far-right Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/98 "2019-12-20T18:53:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s unfortunate that your best point is vapid, but I applaud this tentative flirtation with honesty, however brief it may be. That’s enough right there. Everyone, be nice or I’ll shut this thing down. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/99 "2019-12-20T19:21:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I am OK with the idea that gender isn’t socially important or at least shouldn’t be. I know personally I have never felt very “womanly”, so my gender identity doesn’t feel very important to me. But it is clear to me that gender is important to lots of people. I don’t think all of these people are transphobes or TERFs. You may have the same issue I have. Since gender isn’t very important to me, transgenderism has always been difficult for me to grok. I don’t really identify with my gender more than I identify with my handedness (less, since I clearly don’t make my gender part of my username on some random messageboard). It’s hard for me to **feel** what gender dysphoria would be like, and when I try to imagine it, it’s like imagining being upset over being misidentified as right-handed. But that’s okay. It ain’t about me. And some basic morality is, you let people live their best life without giving them shit over it. I don’t have to **feel** what gender feels like to other people; I just have to recognize that it’s important to them. But there are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ways to have gender be important to you: 1. You can feel your gender very strongly and want others to respect it. 2. You can have strong feelings about other people’s gender and want them to conform to your feelings. Transgender people fall in the first category. Transphobes fall in the second. I suspect that, a hundred years from now, gender identities in our culture will look as different from today as today’s identities look from 1920. That’s fine. We’re a bunch of social primates figuring these messy bodies and chaotic brains out as best we can. The best we can do is to respect other folks and let them live their best life\*. And that means not giving transgender folks shit, and extra-specially not giving them some passive aggressive “BUT ITS THE TROOOOOF!!!” bullshit like what that researcher did. - Exceptions granted when someone’s best life means fucking it up for others ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105/100 "2019-12-20T19:23:49Z")
1-Gregor Murray does NOT identify as a woman. They identify as gender fluid. 2-In Rowling’s Robert Galbraith book **The Silkworm** , there are transphobic themes. Though it’s a dangerous slope to claim that an author’s work reveals their true feelings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-jk-rowling-transphobic/845105.md?page=6)