# Is Joe Biden's campaign over before it starts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 30, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783 "2019-03-30T21:31:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/201 "2019-04-01T23:45:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your concern is touching. > > No…not touching. What’s the word I was looking for? Oh, yeah, I remember now. > Your “concern” is _hypocritical_. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/202 "2019-04-01T23:49:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t really care about anyone saying “that looks creepy” if they see Biden doing something on TV. That doesn’t bother me. > > I don’t like the usage of these lurid videos of women and girls being touched, that were made for political purposes, without the consent of these women and girls. And I don’t like others trying to use these nasty, consent-free videos for their own arguments. There are perfectly reasonable criticisms of Biden’s behavior, using Flores’ account (and apparently a second account I haven’t seen yet), that don’t require the usage of random internet consent-free nastiness. > > And I really don’t like your brushing aside the personhood of Stephanie Carter who is perfectly capable of speaking for herself, and did speak for herself, and you continued to implicitly deny that she could have this voice and was capable of having a friend who could give her hugs as they pleased. I can’t imagine how you’ve convinced yourself that you shouldn’t have backed off from this. Biden behaved inappropriately with Flores; that doesn’t mean that he behaved inappropriately with Carter, especially when she says that they were close friends and she welcomed his affection. Those posts are creepy and gross, and you don’t lose anything by considering that maybe you made a mistake and backing off from them. You have been called out about thinking it is somehow improper these women have their very public photos and videos shared. Dunno what more to tell you except it is fine and your concern is unfounded. Maybe you think it is not right for us to assume how they feel about Unca Joe neck rubs but there is a reason most people looking at them squirm a bit because it is weird. Maybe it is normal where you are from but the rest of us find it super creepy. Biden has been accused of something so pics/vids of him doing what he is accused of are very relevant. Indeed, not even particularly new. The pics/vids were all taken in _very_ public settings. No one, not even the kids, expected privacy with a zillion cameras pointed at them. So, if you think you are protecting Jane Doe forget it…the pictures are out there. If you think you are protecting Biden…why? As for Carter you forget we also have Flores. So, one person who is seen with a special Unca Joe neck rub is cool with it and another person says special Unca Joe neck rub creeped her out. We have loads of pics of Unca Joe’ special neck rubs…not just these two. Whose side are you on? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/203 "2019-04-01T23:53:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You have been called out about thinking it is somehow improper these women have their very public photos and videos shared. Dunno what more to tell you except it is fine and your concern is unfounded. > > Maybe you think it is not right for us to assume how they feel about Unca Joe neck rubs but there is a reason most people looking at them squirm a bit because it is weird. Maybe it is normal where you are from but the rest of us find it super creepy. > > Biden has been accused of something so pics/vids of him doing what he is accused of are very relevant. Indeed, not even particularly new. The pics/vids were all taken in _very_ public settings. No one, not even the kids, expected privacy with a zillion cameras pointed at them. > > So, if you think you are protecting Jane Doe forget it…the pictures are out there. If you think you are protecting Biden…why? > > As for Carter you forget we also have Flores. So, one person who is seen with a special Unca Joe neck rub is cool with it and another person says special Unca Joe neck rub creeped her out. > > We have loads of pics of Unca Joe’ special neck rubs…not just these two. > > Whose side are you on? Most of this has nothing to do with my actual words, so I’ll just give up for now. I don’t know how to respond to this kind of parade of straw men. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/204 "2019-04-02T00:03:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We have loads of photos/video of Biden doing his creep thing. Does that change anything for you? No, you dont. You have a bogus edited vid collection from a kremlin hireling. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/205 "2019-04-02T00:06:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, you dont. You have a bogus edited vid collection from a kremlin hireling. Then for once Russia did us a favor. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/206 "2019-04-02T00:07:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most of this has nothing to do with my actual words, so I’ll just give up for now. I don’t know how to respond to this kind of parade of straw men. I.E. Dodge, dodge, dodge. Fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/207 "2019-04-02T00:11:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I.E. Dodge, dodge, dodge. > > Fine with me. Jesus. I wish you’d just respond to my actual words. I haven’t accused you of dishonesty once, and you refuse to even consider that I might be making honest arguments. I’ll try and keep it simple. Carter’s account is not in any conflict, not at all in any way, with that of Flores. There’s no conflict there at all. I don’t know why or how you insist that they are in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/208 "2019-04-02T00:19:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I honestly do not think Biden is a perv. I think his hands-on, touchy thing is “innocent” inasmuch as, I think, he is just trying to be amiable. > > But he doesn’t do it to men and I think this is at the base of #MeToo. Men just do things to women that are sexist. They don’t see it that way but they treat the “little ladies” differently. Biden is an old guy. He is of a different era. In the 1950’s this would be charming behavior. In 2020 not so much. Yes. And clearly Biden still sees nothing wrong with this conduct, which at best is patronizing. He’s the Guy at the Top, comforting and bestowing his own wonderfulness on the little ladies. And he thinks that’s great! My guess is there is no footage of Biden doing this to a woman who clearly outranks him. Of course in US politics no one really outranks a Vice President, so we’d be talking about him (say) putting his hands on Queen Elizabeth’s shoulders and kissing her hair. That’s tough to imagine. He would know better that to try it—which, I think reveals what’s really behind the handling of women (an assertion—ever-so-benign, of course—of power). Biden COULD fix this. It all depends on what he says. (And, of course, on him ceasing to lay hands on women who haven’t issued an invitation.) Biden needs to do something that may not be possible for him: he needs to stop thinking of women as fair flowers who will be grateful for his touch. He needs to start thinking of women as, you know, _people_. A lot of voters would forgive his past if he could move past the mental rut he seems to be in now, in which he’s clearly convinced that if he didn’t _ **intend** _ to make anyone uncomfortable, then all is well, and everyone should stop talking about this. Biden doesn’t yet understand that good intentions aren’t the point, here. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/209 "2019-04-02T00:43:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Jesus. I wish you’d just respond to my actual words. I have. If you want to point out where I have been unfair or willingly missed the point feel free to point it out. I really am not out to mischaracterize your argument. At the end of it all I hope we will all agree (I know…not likely but I still hope). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/210 "2019-04-02T00:52:28Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I really am not out to mischaracterize your argument. …and yet you continue to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/211 "2019-04-02T01:00:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and yet you continue to do so. Show me where. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/212 "2019-04-02T01:16:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Show me where or admit you are making this up. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, Flores made a claim that looks like loads of other pics of Biden doing the same thing. Those pictures are relevant to show this is not a one-time oops from Biden but rather shows a pattern of similar behavior. > > Maybe you are right and every other female in these pics welcomed the contact and Flores is the one outlier. > > Would you make a substantial bet on it? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Uggh. It’s just revolting the way your posts in this thread have continuously and blatantly disregarded the personhood and individuality of Stephanie Carter (you didn’t even back off after she explicitly said that Biden was her close friend offering comfort!) and these other women and girls. I haven’t made any other claims aside from criticism of Biden for the conduct Flores alleges and his response. I’ve made no claims at all about any of these women and girls, aside from Flores and Carter, both of whom have made their feelings clear. > > Using women and girls without their consent is wrong. Your usage of Stephanie Carter and these other women and girls without their consent (and explicitly opposite to the account of Carter, even after you saw her statement) is wrong and, IMO, disgusting. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You didn’t answer my question. > > Also, you ignoring Flores being bothered by Biden’s behavior is disgusting. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your question contained a false premise. > > This also contains a false premise. Biden’s disregard for Flores’ personal space was indeed disgusting. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What “false premise”? > > Do you think this should stop Biden from running for president? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You said “Maybe you are right and…” and then the false premise. I haven’t characterized, in any way, any touching/affection behavior by Biden aside from the behavior that Flores and Carter have publicly spoken about. I won’t assume anything at all about the consent of women and girls who haven’t publicly spoken about it. > > If I were him, I wouldn’t run, and this makes me substantially less likely to support him against the other Democratic candidates. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > My question was what you would be willing to make a substantial bet on. No premise at all. A simple binary choice. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wouldn’t make any such bet, and I find the idea of making a bet about the consent of women and girls who are personally unknown to me to be rather repugnant. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What is “repugnant” about it? > > We have a series of photos of Biden getting handsy with women and girls. > > You posit it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact. > > Fine. > > So the question is, if you had to bet, which way do you think the majority of women would feel about it? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I decline to play this revolting game, because _it is wrong to assume how the women/girls felt about that contact_. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > **Read: “I am cornered and can’t find a way out of what I argued for so I will feign indignance.”** …entire sequence quoted for context: the bolded is a clear and obvious example of you purposefully mischaracterizing what iiandyiiii has said. Followed up later in the thread with this zinger: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > He/she does not have to answer but a dodge is a dodge. And this one: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You are the one who used charged language like “revolting”. > > Maybe you are really revolted. **If so I submit you are too easily triggered.** And this one. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I.E. Dodge, dodge, dodge. > > Fine with me. Its perfectly cromulent that you don’t understand what iiandyiiii has been saying to you but that isn’t his fault. He is under no obligation to answer disingenuous questions and choosing not to answer those questions is not “dodging.” So no I’m not going to admit to “making this up” because I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/213 "2019-04-02T01:17:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Show me where. I’m not completely on board, but it takes not very much attention to see the disconnect. You keep demanding iiandyiii make a judgment on little video clips that the people in the videos have not made themselves. Andy’s whole point is that it is up to them to tell their story. But you keep saying “look at their faces!” and “someone must be lying!”. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/214 "2019-04-02T01:28:25Z")
I think Biden’s fucked. There are already two women coming out to explain their discomfort around Biden, and I’m guessing there will only be more, and I’m not quite sure how to feel about it. I understand that Biden’s accusers probably felt uncomfortable and chose at the time not to say anything about it, probably feeling like they were powerless. On the other hand, I don’t see where Biden has attempted to conceal who he was, and it has been well-known for a long time that Biden likes to put his hands on people, both women and men. I guess I’m wondering, did Biden really cross lines incontrovertibly, or is it simply a matter of a new era, with new ground rules? I think we’ve all known people who are physically affectionate - it’s not always black and white, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/215 "2019-04-02T03:41:41Z")
It doesn’t have to be black and white. Warren doesn’t have a squicky scandal. Gillibrand? Booker? Harris? I can’t think of anything to quite compare there, either. Klobuchar apparently ate a salad with a comb once, so there’s that… It is only April. If this is it, I don’t think it is a knockout blow. I’ll have to see more of the campaign before I decide how to vote. I hope the conversation covers way more than scandals. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/216 "2019-04-02T19:35:05Z")
Okay, say you don’t find Biden’s squicky behavior with women and girls compelling enough to compromise his candidacy.[How about his involvement in getting a Ukrainian top prosecutor fired](https://www.msn.com/en-xl/northamerica/northamerica-top-stories/joe-bidens-2020-ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived/ar-BBVvvd8) when said prosecutor was sniffing around too closely to the to the natural gas firm, Burisma Holdings, that employed Biden’s son, Hunter as a board member? There are a whole lot of payments there that ended up in Hunter’s pocket that wouldn’t be there if Unca Joe hadn’t gotten the prosecutor who was investigating corruption charges fired. Fired using his power as the VP, no less. Yeah, can’t see how THAT would be a problem. Or is that just “Joe being Joe” too? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/217 "2019-04-02T23:54:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I guess I’m wondering, did Biden really cross lines incontrovertibly, or is it simply a matter of a new era, with new ground rules? … I honestly don’t see Democrats talking in terms of ‘lines crossed incontrovertibly.’ It’s much more a conversation about Biden appearing _not to understand_ that there’s something questionable about laying hands on people you barely know (without their invitation). If Biden isn’t able to wrap his mind around this new-to-him concept, then what other concepts not widespread in his long-ago youth will he simply refuse to consider? That’s the discussion. I suspect a lot of people want to pretend that the Democrats are preparing to condemn every white male born before 1999 and everything those white males have ever done----because that provides an occasion for righteous indignation. _Those crazy Democrats! Totally unfair! Ridiculous expectations!_ Etc. etc. You can’t enjoy a good bout of _what do these unreasonable people expect, perfect ‘wokeness’?_ if you acknowledge what’s really the issue being debated here. (Which is Biden’s actions and remarks NOW, not what Biden may have done years ago.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/218 "2019-04-03T14:44:00Z")
Two more women speak out: [Two More Women Object To Biden’s Touchiness - TPM – Talking Points Memo](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/two-more-women-object-biden-touchiness) The pattern, so far, is consistent – non-sexual (no one has claimed any sort of groping or sexual assault, that I’m aware of) but still unwelcome (for some women) touching during public events and/or political campaigning. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/219 "2019-04-03T15:25:55Z")
I don’t know. It isn’t that he did anything sexual, it’s that he intrudes on personal space. I just saw Jonathan Capehart on MSNBC describing how Biden put his hands on Capehart’s shoulders, leaned in, and touched his forehead to Jonathon to talk very close to him. Joe does that. Jonathan said he wasn’t bothered by it, he just felt his space was intruded but then added “but I’m not a woman, either”. It would be ironic if he was forced from the race because of getting too handsy in a non-sexual way and couldn’t run against a guy who brags about getting away with grabbing women by the pussy and who bought a teenage beauty pageant so that he could barge in their dressing room and see them in stages of undress. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/220 "2019-04-03T16:26:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not particularly interested in looking at tailored random internet crap that, according to the descriptions of this thread, very likely blatantly disregards the personhood and wishes of the women and girls involved. So the fact that Biden was the same way with children who couldn’t have consented as he was with adult women who may or may not have consented after the fact, doesn’t matter to you because you’re not going to look at the publicly available pictures of public events. Which you know were ‘tailored’ even though you don’t look at them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783.md?page=12)