# Is Joe Biden's campaign over before it starts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 30, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783 "2019-03-30T21:31:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/81 "2019-04-01T05:01:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … Anita Hill hearings…jesusfuckingchrist…:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I think every single Senator knew Anita Hill was telling the truth … and many of them thought “What’s the fuss? I flirted with two of my interns just yesterday!” Should Chairman Biden have protected Ms. Hill’s honor? Maybe, but he’d have come across as partisan. I was already concerned about Biden’s age, and the fact that he’s not super-smart. I don’t know if these fondling allegations would doom him; they’re just the final straw for me. But expect to see _some_ smoke before a real fire — is there _any_ charge likely against Booker? (I’m not happy to give racist morons yet another reason to vote for Trump, but I’m going with Booker by process of elimination.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/82 "2019-04-01T11:48:50Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Anyone who truly believes Warren or Biden or Sanders could win a national election against the incumbent is seriously kidding themselves. If they cannot win then who can (in your opinion)? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/83 "2019-04-01T12:01:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So while I don’t find his overly familiar touch habit to be disqualifying, his inadequate preparation for that attack is much closer to it. In the #MeToo era I do not see how he expects to get past this. Biden said, “Not once — never — did I believe I acted inappropriately." But that is the issue isn’t it? He literally thinks his inappropriate actions are fine. What’s the big deal? You can see what he (probably) did to Lucy Flores in [this picture of Stephanie Carter, wife of incoming Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter during Carter’s swearing-in ceremony in February 2015](https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/bPAohmlBhVGTw0FkkJYhB__1wnU=/480x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/M3TJIBVZIEI6JFBD6PIKD3BTLQ.jpg) (from a recent [WaPo article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-bidens-affectionate-physical-style-with-women-comes-under-scrutiny/2019/03/31/a41a81d0-5275-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.408290b0cb56) about Biden’s overly familiar style). If you are a woman would you be comfortable with that? If you are a man would you be comfortable with that (either if he did that to you or he did that to your wife)? I doubt you would. I know I wouldn’t. That Biden doesn’t see it should be disqualifying. I did not like Biden before this (and I am on record here about that) and am frankly happy if this torpedoes his candidacy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/84 "2019-04-01T12:08:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They were not strangers. He was at a rally for _her._ Now sure, they were professional friends, not intimate, and sure it was old school, but he apologized. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > “Strangers”? Were she and he “strangers” when this alleged event occurred? :dubious: I’m sorry, had they met before that day? If so, I retract what I said. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/85 "2019-04-01T12:13:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Those clips were obviously edited. 😉 Please do give details. Saw one that showed the scene from a medium distance, then cut to replay the same scene with a close-up view of Biden and that one little girl. If you call that ‘obviously edited,’ well, it was obvious, but not in the sense of giving a false impression of anything. If you’ve got something more, do tell. > [@](#): > > The GOp is making up shit about Joe, and you are helping them. This is getting to be like, “if you do X, the terrorists have already won” from back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/86 "2019-04-01T12:42:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In the #MeToo era I do not see how he expects to get past this. > > Biden said, “Not once — never — did I believe I acted inappropriately." But that is the issue isn’t it? He literally thinks his inappropriate actions are fine. What’s the big deal? > > You can see what he (probably) did to Lucy Flores in [this picture of Stephanie Carter, wife of incoming Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter during Carter’s swearing-in ceremony in February 2015](https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/bPAohmlBhVGTw0FkkJYhB__1wnU=/480x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/M3TJIBVZIEI6JFBD6PIKD3BTLQ.jpg) (from a recent [WaPo article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-bidens-affectionate-physical-style-with-women-comes-under-scrutiny/2019/03/31/a41a81d0-5275-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.408290b0cb56) about Biden’s overly familiar style). > > If you are a woman would you be comfortable with that? If you are a man would you be comfortable with that (either if he did that to you or he did that to your wife)? I doubt you would. I know I wouldn’t. That Biden doesn’t see it should be disqualifying. > > I did not like Biden before this (and I am on record here about that) and am frankly happy if this torpedoes his candidacy. Of course, oddly enough, Stephanie Carter disagrees: [https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/31/joe-biden-stephanie-carter-1246007](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/31/joe-biden-stephanie-carter-1246007) So maybe slow down on the witch hunt a little. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/87 "2019-04-01T12:45:05Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Of course, oddly enough, Stephanie Carter disagrees: [https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/31/joe-biden-stephanie-carter-1246007](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/31/joe-biden-stephanie-carter-1246007) > > So maybe slow down on the witch hunt a little. Ok. Then just watch these videos posted earlier in this thread: [https://twitter.com/RAMRANTS/status/930065838387863552?s=19](https://twitter.com/RAMRANTS/status/930065838387863552?s=19) Maybe they are all ok with it too. Or maybe they know better than to criticize the vice president of the United States who is above their husband/dad in the political hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/88 "2019-04-01T12:46:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … > You can see what he (probably) did to Lucy Flores in [this picture of Stephanie Carter, wife of incoming Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter during Carter’s swearing-in ceremony in February 2015](https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/bPAohmlBhVGTw0FkkJYhB__1wnU=/480x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/M3TJIBVZIEI6JFBD6PIKD3BTLQ.jpg) (from a recent [WaPo article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-bidens-affectionate-physical-style-with-women-comes-under-scrutiny/2019/03/31/a41a81d0-5275-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.408290b0cb56) about Biden’s overly familiar style). … Funny thing about that oft reposted picture of Biden with Stephanie Carter: [she says otherwise and is sick and tired of people speaking for her.](https://medium.com/@scarterdc/the-metoo-story-that-wasnt-me-6c1d5eb1e94d?_referrer=twitter) > [@](#): > > Last night, I received a text from a friend letting me know that picture was once again all over Twitter in connection to Lucy Flores’ personal account of a 2014 encounter with Joe Biden. Let me state upfront that I don’t know her, but I absolutely support her right to speak her truth and she should be, like all women, believed. But her story is not mine. The Joe Biden in my picture is a close friend helping someone get through a big day, for which I will always be grateful. So, as the sole owner of my story, it is high time that I reclaim it — from strangers, Twitter, the pundits and the late-night hosts. … > > … By the time then-Vice President Biden had arrived, he could sense I was uncharacteristically nervous- and quickly gave me a hug. After the swearing in, as Ash was giving remarks, he leaned in to tell me “thank you for letting him do this” and kept his hands on my shoulders as a means of offering his support. But a still shot taken from a video — misleadingly extracted from what was a longer moment between close friends — sent out in a snarky tweet — came to be the lasting image of that day. … Biden likely\* has\* sometimes touched with good intent and misread without being aware of it. He should be own up to the discomfort that, in the context of the power dynamics, has caused. _This_ was one of the more likely more common times that _he read it exactly right_. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/89 "2019-04-01T12:59:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Funny thing about that oft reposted picture of Biden with Stephanie Carter: [she says otherwise and is sick and tired of people speaking for her.](https://medium.com/@scarterdc/the-metoo-story-that-wasnt-me-6c1d5eb1e94d?_referrer=twitter) Hypothetical: Imagine you are standing on a city sidewalk and you see a random guy groping random women as they walk by. Some women shrug it off and keep going. Other women feel they have been assaulted. Did the guy only assault the women who were annoyed by the unwanted groping? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/90 "2019-04-01T13:02:42Z")
I think Lucy Flores’ (and anyone else who cares to speak about their personal experiences with Joe Biden) statements should be considered with regards to Biden’s candidacy. Her allegations strike me as credible. Biden’s response hits a few good notes (not attacking Flores in any way or implying dishonesty and praising her for coming forward) and fails to hit some other notes it probably should have (Biden should make it clear that he now understands that physical affection is not always welcome, and he will be much more careful to not give hugs or other affection to strangers without clear signs that it would be welcome). I don’t know if this will sink his candidacy; I will take this allegation and any others seriously and into account, and his response, when evaluating who to support. I think random anonymous internet video cuts of Biden hugging or otherwise touching people who have not made any allegations against him, or otherwise provided their consent for images of their bodies to be used in political attack videos, should not be considered or cited as anything beyond random internet trash. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/91 "2019-04-01T13:11:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Hypothetical: > > Imagine you are standing on a city sidewalk and you see a random guy groping random women as they walk by. > > Some women shrug it off and keep going. Other women feel they have been assaulted. > > Did the guy only assault the women who were annoyed by the unwanted groping? According to Carter, they were close friends. Your hypothetical is not remotely comparable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/92 "2019-04-01T13:15:45Z")
More from Flores: [Flores: Biden Encounter Was A Personal Space Issue, Not Sexual Harassment - TPM – Talking Points Memo](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/flores-biden-personal-space-not-sexual-harassment) > [@](#): > > “For the record, I don’t believe that it was a bad intention. I’m not in any way suggesting that I felt sexually assaulted or sexually harassed. I felt invaded. I felt there was a violation of my personal space,” she said. “And it’s been dismissed as if it’s just Biden being Biden. Boys will be boys. No big deal. It is a big deal.” > > “When I started to see pictures of him behaving in the same way he did with me and with other women, it was very triggering,” she said. “I felt so much empathy for them. I knew what they were going through. I had been in their shoes.” I have occasionally felt my personal space was invaded by people who just assume that “friendly” touching is always welcome. This was probably not sexual assault (I’m talking about my experiences; Flores speaks for herself), but it’s still a related issue in the sense that some people seem to have a sense of entitlement towards other people’s bodies, even if it’s not meant in any way sexually. Based on Flores’ account, Biden may sometimes have this sense of entitlement to be physically affectionate with those who may not welcome this, and hopefully he will re-evaluate this feeling of entitlement and refrain from touching strangers who have not made it clear that it is welcome (like, say, opening their arms for a hug). I think this is a reasonable and credible allegation and criticism by Flores. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/93 "2019-04-01T13:15:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Hypothetical: > > Imagine you are standing on a city sidewalk and you see a random guy groping random women as they walk by. > > Some women shrug it off and keep going. Other women feel they have been assaulted. > > Did the guy only assault the women who were annoyed by the unwanted groping? Isn’t it supposed to be up to the woman to decide what is acceptable and what is not? Or are you guys going to decide for us. Again. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/94 "2019-04-01T13:22:12Z")
I see ninja’ed but it highlights how easy it is to edit things to give an appearance of something when you have decades of clips to work with and people willing to say what others were thinking instead of actually listening to them. When the people in those clips _tell us_ how they felt about Biden’s touch then we have some n to work with … and after decades I am sure there is _some_ n … while it is people who come in with a pre-existing dislike for Biden telling us what the people thought, without asking them and without their consent to speak for them … then, uh, no. In this case the offense caused by a power dynamic upon Stephanie Carter was by people like **Whack-a-Mole** acting as a mob using her image misleadingly to serve their own purposes. Not sure about the others but before you use these people for your own ends maybe you should know? I see that now **Whack-a-Mole** is trying to analogize every touch as “groping” … well such is how it goes. Hey let me play too! Let’s say that getting out of a crowded subway you occasionally tap people on the shoulder to get their attention when they don’t move to let you out after you say excuse me. Most people turn and then move out the way, one feels you have groped them sexually, by touching them without permission. Have you been groping all those people you tapped on the shoulder? Also an analogy fail but a less poor fail than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/95 "2019-04-01T13:26:06Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Isn’t it supposed to be up to the woman to decide what is acceptable and what is not? Or are you guys going to decide for us. Again. There is a link above of Biden doing his thing repeatedly to other people (including young girls). Let’s assume this is what he did to Flores since it seems a common thing for him to do. Are men to be beholden to whatever women _think_ is bad touching or is there some criteria men can use to know, before they touch, what constitutes a bad touch? Frankly your world of “bad/good touch is whatever a given woman says it is” is a scary world to live in. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/96 "2019-04-01T13:30:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is a link above of Biden doing his thing repeatedly to other people (including young girls). As far as I can tell, these women and girls have not consented to having images of their bodies being touched used for political attacks. IMO it’s inappropriate for you to continue to advocate that this consent of these women and girls, for the usage of these images, be violated. Flores has spoken out about this and it’s entirely reasonable to use her statements to criticize/critique Biden’s behavior. It’s not reasonable or appropriate to use videos and images of people being touched, who may or may not have been close friends of Biden (or otherwise welcomed his affection), and have not consented to having their image used in this way, for political attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/97 "2019-04-01T13:34:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As far as I can tell, these women and girls have not consented to having images of their bodies being touched used for political attacks. IMO it’s inappropriate for you to continue to advocate that this consent of these women and girls, for the usage of these images, be violated. Flores has spoken out about this and it’s entirely reasonable to use her statements to criticize/critique Biden’s behavior. It’s not reasonable or appropriate to use videos and images of people being touched, who may or may not have been close friends of Biden (or otherwise welcomed his affection), and have not consented to having their image used in this way, for political attacks. Huh? I assume you are trying to be clever about something here. You are not succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/98 "2019-04-01T13:39:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? I assume you are trying to be clever about something here. You are not succeeding. I’m being extremely serious. It’s inappropriate to use an image of someone being affectionately touched, to attack someone else, unless that person has consented to their image being used in that way and/or spoken out about it publicly. I’m saying that you have no idea if the girls and women in that video want their images to be used in this sort of attack (much less whether they are friends of Biden and/or welcomed his affection), and without this knowledge, it’s inappropriate to use these images for this sort of attack. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/99 "2019-04-01T13:42:52Z")
It really is all about consent. Consent for touching/affection, for getting inside someone’s “personal space”, and consent for using images of the recipients of such behavior for political attacks. It isn’t complicated. Flores has made a reasonable and credible allegation that Biden invaded her personal space. It’s reasonable to discuss this allegation. It’s not reasonable to use random internet videos of women and girls being touched if they haven’t consented to their images being used in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783/100 "2019-04-01T13:46:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I see that now **Whack-a-Mole** is trying to analogize every touch as “groping” … well such is how it goes. I am not saying or suggesting Biden groped these women. You could tell because, right at the top of my post, I labelled it “Hypothetical”. Hypothetical is not the same thing as an analogy. Something I am reasonably sure you know. I was trying to use an unambiguous example of inappropriate touching to determine where the line is drawn. According to **kayT** above it is whatever a woman says it is since men cannot tell a woman what is good or bad touching. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joe-bidens-campaign-over-before-it-starts/831783.md?page=6)