I have no idea what you’re talking about. This doesn’t appear to have anything to do with what I posted.
ISTM like I’m responding head-on to what you posted. Can’t help you there.
Okay. By my reading, you said or implied things about my beliefs that are baseless and inaccurate.
I’ll put it another way - I think there’s plenty to criticize about how Biden touches women, and I base that criticism on the words of women who have spoken about their experiences with Biden. I hope he doesn’t run, and I’m very unlikely to support him over most of the other Democratic candidates.
I also think it’s inappropriate (and disgusting to me personally) to presume things about the consent of women who haven’t spoken out. I’m not interested in videos or photos that are entirely unable to provide any information on the consent and wishes of those involved (including their consent and wishes about how images of their bodies being touched are used) and/or their relationship with Biden.
More on consent when it comes to public video or photographs - in my view, if someone goes to a public, photographed or taped event, they are implicitly providing permission for these recordings to be taken and used as a record that the event took place, who was present, and the official proceedings. They are not providing implicit consent for strangers to slobber and obsess over the precise details of how their bodies were touched or handled, or anything else about their bodies, any more than they are providing consent for these images to be used in pornography. And I elect not to approach that line at all, especially when there are actual women who have spoken up about their experiences, thus nullifying any possible need to refer to these videos at all.
Well, one famous compilation shred here is a highly edited hit piece. The editing make the activity appear more creepy and the reactions worse.
But Joe is a friendly man of his times. He touches people. People generally are good with that.You know that Sanders Supporter politician who complained how Biden kissed her on the back of the head? Sure. Not good. But they were touchy friendly… it was her rally, Biden was supporting her and she put her arms around him on stage. Should Biden complain about that?
Another shot is of a woman in a restaurant who pushed her chair up to the Veep, back first, pretty well asking for some sort of contact.
Honestly, non-sexual touching isnt evil. Yes, it is no longer a thing we do. Some are uncomfortable with it. But in Bidens day it is what you did. It still is common around the USA, in areas- strangers hug, men and women shake hands. In political photos it is common to pose with your hands on a shoulder to show support.
Like I asked to begin with, do you believe children have the right to consent to inappropriate touching?
Can you point out to me where the edits are in one of the first, say, four videos? (I think that’s the point where I’d had enough.)
Well, yes, they are. If I’m weird enough that I want to masturbate to a video of Joe Biden giving a campaign speech, I get to do that. Or for that matter, if I see a woman during a pan of the audience who I think is hot, I can freeze the video and masturbate to her image. (Not something I’m likely to do, jftr.) Or do I have to find out who she is, contact her, and obtain her consent first?
And others are saying, “no, that’s not what really happened.” And without videos or photos, how do we know?
So here we have those videos and photos. We should use them.
I don’t care what you do in the privacy of your own home. But I’d object if you made or edited or distributed or promoted a pornographic video that included clips of these women and girls being touched. Just as I would for any other video that’s meant to focus on how their bodies were touched or otherwise used, unless you’ve gotten their permission to do so. Because that’s no longer just you in your basement - it’s affecting other people.
I have no problem with scrutinizing any video of the specific women who have chosen to speak out. Feel free to point me towards any video that shows how Flores or one of the other women who have spoken out was touched. I have no problem at all with that, since they’ve chosen to speak publicly about these experiences.
I don’t understand this question nor how it is relevant to anything I’ve said. You might as well be asking me if I beat my wife.
In a posed group photo, with a VIP, and parent there, when the photographer says “OK now, Mr Vice President, put your hand on her shoulder like you mean support…” inappropriate touching?
Keeristonafuckingpogostick, these are mostly posed group photos, with the parents asking, nay *begging *the VIP to take a photo with their kid. Look at kids posing with sports stars, disney costumed character, and so forth- they are ALWAYS touching the kid. Hugging, etc.
Google “politicians kissing babies” sometimes, and you will see politicos actually kissing:eek: tiny children- without that kids written and informed consent!:eek::eek::eek:
if you watched them and didnt see them, then I can’t help you. So very obviously edited it isnt even funny. They are edited worse that Hitlers jig at the treaty signing.
And note - the* parents were right there. *
If touching is “inappropriate”, then by definition there is no consent. If there is consent, then the touching is not inappropriate. Children can consent to hugs and other non sexual touching, just as they can deny consent for hugs and such. That’s why the question makes no sense at all to me.
A hand on a shoulder to show support during a political photo, or a handshake–***-these are not things Biden is being criticized for doing. ***
There’s a generalized ‘what is wrong with touching people if you’re a warm, friendly person?’ argument that is sort of floating around, and isn’t being closely examined. (I don’t mean to pick you out, DrDeth, because millions of people are making this same basic argument; your post happened to express it more clearly than many. So when I say ‘you’ in this post, I mean a generalized ‘you’–all the people who hold the view that Biden is a warm and friendly guy and what he’s done is being criticized unjustly.)
The argument seems to be that criticizing Biden for being a warm, friendly guy is just plain unfair. What is going on with these unreasonable women, criticizing a guy for being warm and friendly? What is going on with the Democratic party, tearing down one of their own for doing something that’s perfectly okay and reasonable to do? —That seems to be the general sense.
And that shows that those who are making the argument that there is something questionable about Biden’s habits, need to work on communicating more clearly.
The argument that walking up to someone you barely know—yes, even someone from your own political party, at whose rally you are!—walking up and holding that person from behind and smelling her hair and kissing her hair, is a questionable action, might be better understood if we look at some other examples of when Biden does—or does not—perform such actions.
Biden, as is well known, is a Catholic. As Vice President he has had a number of audiences with both Pope Benedict and Pope Francis. Photos exist of some of these meetings. If you search “Biden” and “audience with Pope” or similar terms, you’ll get quite a few photos.
Since Biden is a warm and friendly man, who presumably feels warm and friendly toward Popes, you’d expect that when he encounters a Pope, he will step right up with a warm and friendly hug, right? Maybe even a neck rub? Perhaps a kiss on the head?
…My guess is that everyone reading, picturing Biden meeting with a Pope, rejected the idea that Biden would have stepped up and hugged that Pope–much less given him a neck rub or a kiss on the head. Most people would feel pretty safe in assuming that Biden did NOT smell the hair of a Pope, or grab him from behind and pull him close.
…Why is that?
If Biden is a warm, tactile guy, why wouldn’t he have been tactile with a Pope?
If you can answer that, then you have the answer to the question ‘why do some object to Biden doing things such as Flores and others have described’?
To spell it out: Biden hugs down.
Biden, when he grabs people and smells their hair and kisses their heads, is asserting dominance. He probably has no idea that he’s asserting dominance–he’d probably be hurt and offended by the observation that that’s what he’s doing.
But if he doesn’t behave the same way with everyone—if he refrains from hugging and smelling the hair of people who outrank him in the status hierarchy—then that’s what he’s doing. He’s asserting dominance.
And that’s what the recipients of his “hug down” maneuvers find uncomfortable.
Go ahead, it’s fair.
Yesbut- that same woman put her arms around him on stage at the same event. In public, without asking. And oddly that woman is a major supported of Sanders, and didnt mention this until Biden pulled ahead of Sanders in the polls.
But you are wrong about Biden hugging down; goggle Biden Hugging Obama. Not only did they hug on many occasions, Obama *kissed *Joe on the cheek while they were hugging. So, *no *it’s not a dominance thing.
You just dont touch the Pope without permission. That’s the rules around the Pope.
Ex-Sanders supporter, it seems. Flores left Our Revolution, Bernie Sander’s group, in May 2018.
Interesting theory. I’m not disagreeing. I do think there’s a power dynamic that has an impact on the complaints. But the thing with being the Vice-President of the US is that there aren’t many people who are up from that position. Your example of the Pope is a good one, but maybe people just do behave differently around the Pope. I did a quick search for ‘Obama and Biden embracing’ because Obama is the only other person who would be up from Biden. I found some of those photos to be cringe-worthy. YMMV.
ETA: Just noticed that DrDeth just made this point. I posted this before I saw that.
And when did Lucy Flores make her accusation? This happened in 2014, 5 years ago. She’s a strong woman, not afraid to speak her mind, why didnt she announce to the audience then and there “Joe Biden just kissed the back of my hair, Joe that was inappropriate!” Instead she sucked up to him, and put her arms around him on stage, and before the incident in a photo op. Why? Well, because he was supporting her in her race.
Why is she making the claim today? Why? Because *her *candidate- Bernie is behind in the polls from Joe.
Let me make this clear- before the incident Flores posed for a picture with HER arm around Joe. Did she ask Joe first if she could “fondle” him? Or is it only “creepy” if a older man does it, but Ok if a younger attractive female does it? Double standard.
Then there’s this:
*Tezlyn Figaro, who worked with Flores at Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) organization Our Revolution, has similarly felt compelled to speak out on Flores. From what it sounds like, she didn’t leave the best impression on her. She explained on “Fox & Friends” why she filed an EEOC complaint against her and why Biden should know his accuser is a “fraud.” …Her current EEOC complaint names Lucy Flores “as someone who was racist who also implemented retaliation,” Figaro explained. “She told me that if I didn’t do what she told me to, then I would suffer the consequences.” *
None of this has anything to do with the substance of her story, and as always, attacking women who have done nothing more than tell their stories is disgusting (and sadly very common).
It has everything to do with it. Remember- *unwelcome *contact. She put HER arm around him before the incident at a Photo shoot. Didi she say “Mr Vice President, may I put my arm around you?”. Touching without permission.
Then on stage, after the “incident” she again put her arms around him and thanked him. If she was so shocked by the “incident” why would she again initiate contact?
And a political component - when both are politicians is totally legit.